Ratko Mladic and Srebrenica revisionism
Posted on Thursday 26 May, 2011
Filed Under International
THANKS to DNA analysis, the International Commission on Missing Persons has been able to put names on over 6,000 of the corpses found in mass graves in Srebrenica. While the exact number of Bosnians slaughtered there in July 1995 will never be established, there seems little reason to doubt that what happened there marks the worst mass slaughter in Europe since world war two.
Today’s announcement of the capture of General Ratko Mladic – whose whereabouts have almost certainly been known to the Serbian authorities for years – means that the principle perpetrator is set to stand trial for his undoubted crimes.
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is not a body that goes about its business with any notable alacrity. Three years after the capture of Radovan Karadzic, ICTY has yet to reach a verdict on the man who signed the paperwork. But both of them are entitled to due process.
Yet there are those who want to put across what they believe to be the other side of the story. Take for instance, the Srebrenica Historical Project. The group does not challenge the contention that ‘unfortunate events’ took place.
Instead, it seeks to ‘create a contextual record of the Srebrenica tragedy of July 1995 which can serve as a corrective to the distortions of the last decade and a half’.
While the SHP website is worded as reasonably as possible in the circumstances, some of its boosters are less mealy-mouthed. According to one supportive source, research into ‘the Srebrenica mega-lie’ by SHP’s Dr Ljubiša Simić ‘concluded that the total number of victims in all thirteen Srebrenica mass graves is well under 2,000 – woefully short of the magical number of 8,000, aggressively propagated by the State Department ever since 1995’.
Sweden’s foreign minister Carl Bildt, at the time EU special envoy to the former Yugoslavia, opts for 3,000 as more likely figure.
CounterPunch journalist Diana Johnstone – who again insists she does not deny that a massacre occurred – penned a book questioning the mainstream media version of the killings. When it was rejected in Sweden, Noam Chomsky, John Pilger, Arundhati Roy and Tariq Ali among others signed a letter in her defence.
All of the above have studied the question in greater detail than I was able to in one very brief visit to Bosnia shortly after Dayton. While I have no particular reason to doubt received wisdom, legitimate scepticism is not automatically inadmissible. If there is evidence to adduce, the defendants are entitled to adduce it.
On the other hand, glibly to conclude that ‘the jury is still out’ feels uncomfortable like extending the same charity to holocaust deniers. Just because I cannot personally refute such arguments does not mean the refutation is not there. I fully realise that there will always be those who, for whatever reason, which to muddy the waters of history.
But what should be uncontroversial – but obviously isn’t always – is that the ‘unfortunate events’ amounted to systematic murder on a huge scale, perpetrated under Mladic’s command and on Karadzic’s orders.
Even on the most patently sympathetic Serbian nationalist counterestimate, they hold direct responsibility for thousands of illegal executions, and are very rightly in the dock. Let’s hope that that point is lost on nobody.
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“Take for instance, the Srebrenica Historical Project. The group does not challenge the contention that ‘unfortunate events’ took place.”
They sound like sensibles on Iraq. Though do the sensibles acknowledge any unforunate events in Iraq took place?
So, a man is arrested merely for helping to defend his country against foreign aggressors because the current regime in Serbia wants to join the EU.
No. He’s been arrested for genocide.
So, a man is arrested merely for helping to defend his country against foreign aggressors because the current regime in Serbia wants to join the EU.
Get real, I revile the Serbfrei miniature Salos Germany and it’s allies carved out of Yugoslavia but there’s undoubtedly a case to answer.
Why the ICC never quite gets round to trying the various straight-up fascists, carpetbaggers and sundry blood and soil psychopaths involved in the secessions is another matter.
Raul Hilberg put the number of Jewish dead under the Nazis at somewhere between 4,000,000 and 6,000,000. The lower figure might be correct for all I know, and in theory there might be perfectly legitimate scholarly reasons for a historian to spend years trying to prove that “only” four million died. In practice most people are content to leave the figure of six million unchallenged, out of respect for the dead and revulsion against their murderers, and we know from experience that people who do break with that consensus tend to have a very different agenda.
I feel very similarly about the figure of 8,000 dead at Srebrenica. If it were magically proved tomorrow that the Bosnian Serbs “only” shot half or a quarter of that number of men and boys, what happened would still be an appalling crime (and a crime for which Western imperialism bears its own share of the blame, as it goes). Trying to count the victims and give them names is one thing; trying to revise the body count downwards is quite another – and we know from experience that it tends to go along with attempting to delegitimate the victims and minimise the culpability of their murderers. It’s not a new approach to history in the former Yugoslavia (never ask a Croat about WWII) but it’s not an enterprise that the Western Left has any reason to get dragged into. I hope both Mladic and Karadzic get a fair trial, and I hope they both get very long prison sentences.
Well said Phil. The arrest of Ratko is a very good thing, a vile war criminal is being brought to account. Okay, Bush and Blair should be in the dock as well, which will never happen. It is right to point out the asymetrical injustice of this. But the moment the Left starts in any way to “yeah but no but” equivocate about enemies of humanity like Mladic being brought to justice is a very sad moment indeed. Harold Pinter’s malodorous support of the “Committee to defend Milosevic” springs to mind.
I hope both Mladic and Karadzic get a fair trial, and I hope they both get very long prison sentences.
Karadzic is already dead. He died of a heart attack recently whilst on trial in the Hague.
Maybe Ratko had memories of the Jasenovic death camp. He is to be put on trial and seems to have been found guilty in his absence. So he must be guilty. Maybe Bush,Blair and Kissenger can join him in the dock. Just for the company of course.
Milosevic is dead, but Karadzic is still being tried at the Hague.
“But the moment the Left starts in any way to “yeah but no but” equivocate about enemies of humanity like Mladic being brought to justice is a very sad moment indeed.”
I would have Mladic swinging from a lamppost by his testicles, but, what is sad Arthur is not the lefts “yeah but no but” but some leftists (a very small minority) who say arrest Mladic but apologise for the crimes of Bush and Blair, and celebrate those crimes as acts of liberation. Those people, lets call them sensibles, have no right to ever moralise against anything. Period!
Oh no, already a couple of What About Bush And Blairs?!
For a prime example of the sensiblism I mentioned in my previous comment see dave2. An apologist for mass murders to the end.
Only the sensible mindset fails to see the link between these subjects. The issue being we have an international criminal court system that fails to bring prosecutions against some of the biggest murderers and criminals on the planet. I would think socialists have a duty to point that fact out while welcoming the capture of Mladic.
“Marxism is now the unconditional support for the Western bourgeoisie in every foreign adventure, and whatever international systems they set up this shall be met with uncritical comment. Simple adoration and cheerleading is the new strategy.”
From “Sensible Logic” Chapter 2 Paragraph 7.
I absolutely agree with Phil’s point and the numbers game highlights a desperate need for revisionism and that is truly offensive.
Indeed I really want to see Mladic and Karadzic get a fair trial, face justice and lengthy prison sentences. They are up to their necks in genocide!!
Just because Clinton, Bush, Blair and Kissinger et al aren’t in the dock doesn’t mean that Mladic and Karadzic shouldn’t face justice. It can also operate as a way of distraction and excusing the crimes in the former Yugoslavia.
Based on that logic you wouldn’t convict anyone of anything ‘cos someone else had got away with the same crime at some stage or another.
it is quite clear that DFTM is a fuckking chuernt and an ignorant piece of shit spurted from the arse of a diaorrhea (however you fuckking spell it) having ugly pug. what a tosser.
BTW — i would gladly see DFTM swing from a lampost (better still – be decapitated in the gutter and his head put on the end of a stick).
deviant Fuckwit From some shit or Other piece of shit hanging out of dog scrotum is also one of those cuernts who say that Zionists made nazis commit genocide against jews. yep. a cernT
“but but but worrabowt iraq!#$!!!!$#!!!!!!! — war is baaadd!”
try shutting your stupid internet thick fuckking trap for a minute – you piece of shit ignoramous fuckking clueless tossers.
the AWl protected him
The AWL made him what he is
The AWL are to blame for all of this
Jim Denham — him especially — i hate him. he is bad.
i hate the AWL me i do. they are really bad.
Deviation, I admire your comments as splendid exercises in self-criticism. You always go that little bit further to do the work of your political opponents for them.
See that dead pigeon on the side of the street — the one in the gutter? That’s your best sunday roast chicken that is AWLER PEOPLES. I HATYE YOO. ALL.
have i mentioned i hate j denham. a bad man. he caused the iraq war he did. the AWL as well. they control the werld. And theybnare controlled by jews – and you know what they did with jesus. yes they killed him. and as we all know religions are all good and if yoo criticise any of them then yoo are a racist.
Here is Diana Johnstone’s version of events.
Having seen Louis Proyect recently say that a massacre is not a genocide, I asked a Bosnian friend, and his answer was basically to quote the ICTY definition and say it was at least local genocide.
JimD seems to want to go JoeMcCarthy on this, though it might be more sensible to look at how not distinguishing anti-imperialism from support for dictators can leave you on the wrong side.
Mr.Jelly can get a little filling. Is Mr.IceCream going to be along soon?
excpt for jews. they are fair game and so is their daft religion. after all — nobody has persecuted jews before ever.
Ah “shitskidders” is Mr.IceCream.
Dave, obviously one of your friends from the AWL is impersonating me, not very well, but it might be an idea to ask him to desist.
Jim Denham is probably doing it. Or the AWL. They caused the Iraq war they did.
“Dave, obviously one of your friends from the AWL is impersonating me, not very well, but it might be an idea to ask him to desist.”
Yoo cood not myake this shit up if yoo tryuied.
that AWL and that Jim Denham — they are bad peeple. i would start up my own blergghh abowt them but no one wood visit it so i will pwersist in leaving green ink electronic scrwals all over other peeple’s shit that is actually looked at. I is a daAFT curnt and need a good puch in the fyace.
someone pleasae kill shittyknickers please,
dave2 – just saying it don’t make it so as the song goes.
Jelly – You are clearly mentally challenged. I am sure those Nazi’s you equate me with would have been carrying out various experiments on you if they were still around. I do hope the ConDem cuts don’t affect you too directly, I wouldn’t like to think you were just left to walk the streets.
Stick this Muslim murdering scum away for the rest of. Bush and Blair too. After all they did exactly what Milosovic did. Unleash a sectarian civil war that resulted in mass murder. Far more were murdered in Iraq as well. Now watch as the Bush/Blair apologists storm in to defend the war criminals they like.
Skidmarx:
I think you are mistaken, Skidmarx, the obscene, misanthropic, pervertedly violent posts with deliberate misuse of spelling etc come from Will, aka ‘Will Rubbish’.
I’m fairly sure that the AWL would not have him as a member, for personality problems alone, although he does have a rather touching faith in Jim Denham.
(None of this has anything to do with the matter in hand, of course, but then with people like Will around sensible discussion always becomes diverted. He just won’t fuck off and drink, will he?)
Ah yes, I’d assumed from his comments at Shiraz that he was one of them. Anyone else and I might think about apologising, but I’m more inclined to say it says something about the way they interact that such a mistake could so easily be made.
Here is some Bosnian music.
‘Milosevic is dead, but Karadzic is still being tried at the Hague.’
Cheers Rebecca. One war criminal looks very much like another though. http://www.570news.com/news/world/article/212189–serb-nationalist-writer-ally-of-milosevic-karadzic-dies-at-78
Surely, as socialists, this whole post hinges on who is doing the trying of these monsters?
The US really began to ‘police’ the world when they welcomed Werner Von Braun and his Nazi thugs with open arms, a big house and a fat pension. Ignoring the agonised screams from his slave labour victims in the caves of Nordhausen. The rest, as they say, is history. If Mladic had anything more scientific than a merely domestic genocidal mind, the US open arms would still be there.
As I understand it the US still holds itself above, and refuses to sign up to, the International Criminal Court on Human Rights.
Now I wonder why?
The AWL have poisoned the whole chalice. leaving blerggHh comments has become a nasty jerB nowadays because of them Awl and there horriblE leader Jimbo DehnhaM.
boo hoo. cry.
“sensible discussion always becomes diverted”
Don’t young people say “lol” at this point?
Shit, we’ve been rumbled.
No one ever rumbles us.
Btw: we don’t mind criticising Christianity (Anglicanisms). Only people who criticise other religions are racist.
Join our Celtic Song Singing Group (choir leader: Mr. George Gallowsway).
@ Lockupallwarcriminals
Why is is relevant (to you) that the “murdering scum” were “Muslim murdering scum” (as in “murdering muslims”)?
Bosnia claimed at the time (and still does) to be multi-ethnic and most Bosnians then described themselves as either “Bosniacs” or “Yugoslavs”. They did not see themselves firstly as religious, ethnically or religiously.
I’m also confused by your used of the Morning Star-spelling of “Milosovic” not Milosevic.
There’s a lot going in that brain.
I’ve just noticed a Dutch socialist wrote this:
Had we not been there to establish a safe haven that wasn’t, had we not been there to give people a false sense of security, all those Bosnian Muslims wouldn’t have been trapped there and some 8,000 men and boys might still be alive today. At the very least they wouldn’t have been trapped unarmed and been handed over to their murders so easily. Our humanitarian intervention only make things worse and since then I’ve always been convinced it almost always will.
“Our humanitarian intervention only make things worse and since then I’ve always been convinced it almost always will”
Well, yes:ineffectual “humanitarian intervention” like that was, indeed, useless. The conclusion to be drawn is that in that sort of situation in future, more forceful and aggressive intervention is required – not none at all.
Ivan Goran Kovačić
The Pit
the AWL obviously yet again caused ALL of the problems here — NOt Mladic or anyone else. Okay, so Jim Denham wasn’t actually in charge of those Dutch Troops and he wasn’t actually in Srebrenica when Ratko Mladic and his thugs overran Srebrenica. He wasn’t present when the Dutch ‘peacekeepers’ separated the Bosnian men from the women and children and handed them over to Serb forces to be put onto buses–with fuel provided by the Dutch–and then murdered. Granted, Jimbo wasn’t one of the Dutch officers who, after handing over people to be murdered, drank champagne with the killers. He didn’t destroy evidence that showed Dutch complicity with the genocidaires either. But it was ALL his fault anyway. Well – apart from when it was Norman Geras’s fault. And that Hitchens person. Him as well.
No, neither Jim denham nor any other member of the AWL were there, when the Dutch troops were “helpless” (sic) against Mladic and his goons, but they were responsible for what happened at Srebrenica, most defintely. deffo cos that is what I myself – the great one known as ShiTTYknickers ‘remembers’.
`Well, yes:ineffectual “humanitarian intervention” like that was, indeed, useless. The conclusion to be drawn is that in that sort of situation in future, more forceful and aggressive intervention is required – not none at all.’
For a pro-imperialist yes. For everybody else the conclusion is an independent working class policy. For really forceful humanitarian intervention might I suggest an atomic bomb of some kind? Denham there is nothing radical or left wing about you. You are an imperialist apologist and stooge not to mention an anti-semite zionist.
More of this?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/28/uk-training-saudi-troops
Oh fuck — yet another piece of shit leaves a deposit — “anti-semite zionist”. Aye because the essential nature and role of The Jew™ is to be kicked from pillar to post and then shoved in a oven.
I will ignore scum like “Lock-UP” and move on to a serious commentator. henry porter (no friend of Bush or Blair and an opponent of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq) in todays Observer (“Mladic’s crimes have shaped the world we live in”):
The article concludes, “For evil to triumph it is enough only for goodmen to do nothing. That is what happened in Bosnia and the thousands of deaths caused by Mladic at Sarajevo and Srebenica were as much a product of European indifference and inaction as they were of Mladic’s cruel and bullying nature. His appearance at the Hague will force us to consider again when it is right to intervene and we will remember exactly how he came to do his worst, which may not be a comfortable experience. But justice will be better served – and for victims such as Hasan so will truth – by a living defendant rather than a body riddled with bullets.”
PS Assuming that last comment about “a body riddled with bullets” is a reference to the execution of bin Laden, then I don’t agree. The rest of the piece is spot-on.