The parallels between Palestine and Kurdistan
Posted on Friday 4 June, 2010
Filed Under International
THERE is a certain irony in hearing the head of the Turkish government condemn acts of state terrorism and rail against breaches of international law.
This is not to argue that Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s characterisation of the storming of Mavi Marmaris is at all inaccurate; the brutality of what happened on Monday is too readily evident to need restatement four days later.
It’s just that the head of a government that is clearly no slouch at the repression of ethnic minorities within its own borders is not best placed to issue such a critique.
Some 40,000 people have died since the Partiya Karkerên Kurdistan launched its current insurgency in 1984. Nobody is suggesting that the PKK are choirboys themselves, but the bulk of the bloodshed has been perpetrated by the Turkish state.
The death toll exceeds, many times over, the number of Palestinians that have been killed at the hands of Israel over a comparable period. I believe that particular metric remains in four figures, although I stand to be corrected if any reader has accurate statistics.
Yet the inescapable parallels between Palestine and Kurdistan are stronger than some of those who find in Turkey an ally of convenience this week would probably care to admit.
At the heart of both conflicts is the denial of statehood to a people that aspire towards it, and deserve it on all of the standard criteria typically advanced in such cases.
The best that either has been granted is limited self-administration in a comparatively small part of the territory to they have historically regarded as their possession.
Of the two, it is the Kurdish problem that is by far the most intractable. In fairness to Istanbul, let it be said that Iraq, Iran and Syria are equally complicit in the cruelty.
However, it is Turkey that leads the way, regularly carrying out airstrikes against PKK bases in northern Iraq with apparent impunity. Its likely reaction were anybody to mount an aid convoy to Kurdish fighters in the region is only too easy to guess.
Nothing that is written above should be read as an attempt to exonerate Israel’s hateful and detestable conduct towards Palestinians, which lonh predates even the nakba.
But it is no accident that Turkey and Israel have traditionally been close military allies. Maybe Erdogan and Netanyahu would be better off swapping notes than slagging each other off.
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87 Responses to “The parallels between Palestine and Kurdistan”
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DO ~”…some of those who find in Turkey an ally of convenience this week would probably care to admit.”
Who on these specific Gaza threads has defended the internal (or external) activities and repression of the Turkish STATE?
No-one.
So the real point of this post is? To shift attention. “It’s no accident” indeed.
This probably needed to be said as some on the left seem to see Turkey as the new saviour of mankind.
However, the left have historically been very active in the Kurdish movement.
Whether the parallels you cite are accurate is another matter.
The leader of the PKK has written an excellent book on the development of religion through history, and it would be a loss if the Turks were ever to carry out their death sentence.
Yes the Turkish military have a bad record. I don’t think most well-informed socialists would be scared to admit that, they’d be in favour of a free Kurdistan as much as a free Palestine.
The Israelis have had considerable involvement with the Iraqi Kurds, not greatly surprising when both have been surrounded by Arabs that to put it mildly they haven’t always been the best of friends with. While this hasn’t put Israel and Torkey on a collision course up to now, it is a reminder that they isn’t always a clear dividing line in the world been those who think one way and those who differ.
Let’s not also forget that the forces behind the IHH group from Turkey in the Flottila was also deeply involved in the mass murder of Alevis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alevi
Coates comment makes me think that maybe Richard Harris is correct and this post will be used to deflect attention away from israeli crimes. Like we will ever forget!
Yes, but 1) I have posted on my Blog a robust condemnation of the Israeli actions and 2) Have you every considered that the purpose of Blogs like Dave’s or our others is to think and not just scream?
Turkey will become the left’s new best friend as it is cuddling up to Iran and Syria. Stand by to hear how it is a beacon of Islamic modernity.
Richard Harris and JOHNNO being the loser lefties they are come up with this amazing theory that this is a diversion. Whom exactly is being diverted.
If turks want freedom and free country for Palestinian people, why do turks kill their Kurds and not set Kurdistan free?
Rodin Rojhilat. You make a fair point. Turkey has its economic interests and a lot of it is in former Kurdistan. So they will not give you freedom. Palestine has never been a country just a territory of various Empires. Israel was a country until the Romans kicked the jews out. But as long as the likes of the looney pretend socialists support Islamic fudamentalists you are going to be fucked either way in the forseable future.
“At the heart of both conflicts is the denial of statehood to a people that aspire towards it, and deserve it on all of the standard criteria typically advanced in such cases.”
In fact it is questionable whether most Kurds desire statehood, but all Kurds do enjoy full Turkish citizenship and the same formal rights as any other Turkish citizen. In that respect we are dealing with a national minority which is assimilated into a nation state against the will of a significant number of persons amongst it, and the appropriate analogy would be with the Basque Country or Northern Ireland. This is very different from the situation of the majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories – they are denied citizenship by the Israeli state which rules over them, while at the same time that state does all in its power to ensure that they will never have a meaningful state of their own, and they simply have no rights whatsoever under Israeli rule.
There’s not much in the way of narrow political advantage to be extracted from the Kurds, so they’re forgotten. A few political opportunists will continue to feed on Palestinian misery while they can, passing token ‘resolutions’ at meaningless conferences, party building and calling on Labour MPs and trade union ‘leaders’ for support. This will continue until abject electoral failure compels them to construct yet another improbable front organisation to serve as a recruitment platform – and cash generator for full timers.
Pharisee, what have you been drinking or do you even know what you are talking about? Over 5000 Kurdish villages have been destroyed by the Turkish military and can you tell me how many Turkish villages have been destroyed? How many Kurdish generals have been there? Answer to both your questions are zero. I am a Kurd from Turkey whose home has been blown up. Nobody, especially not someone like you, can tell me that I am enjoying any citizenship unless you are referring to torture and oppression. Within past two weeks the Turkish terrorist state security forces killed two children blatantly.
Oh and did anyone know that Turkey has been applying food and supplies ambargos to Kurdish villages and cities for a very long time now? Wake up.
There is a tale recounted by Christopher Hitchens, the man memorably described by George Galloway as a “drink-soaked Trotskyite popinjay,” which runs as follows:
The Pakistani government, in an overexuberant excess of pan-Islamic zeal, were all prepared to recognise the Turkish-occupied zone of Cyprus* as a de jure state but were sharply warned off by the Greek Cypriots in – roughly – the following words: “We are a small country but you may be certain that if you go ahead with this ill-advised action we will do all in our power to assist separatist groups in Pakistan. The Baluchis, for example.”
The Pakistanis – assuming this tale to be true – duly backed down.
It will be amusing to see what goes on between Israelis and Turkish Kurds if Israeli-Turkish relations deteriorate further.
One can say lots about the Kurds; at present they have a de facto Kurdish-run autonomous state in northern Iraq with two international airports …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdistan_Regional_Government
… but the Kurdish area of present-day Turkey is far larger and far more populous than the area ruled by the K.R.G. There is also Iranian Kurdistan, where a short-lived Kurdish government came into existence under Soviet auspices. Plus an area of northeastern Syria and a slice of the former U.S.S.R.
Maps pasted up in Arbil / Hawler show a vast Kurdistan Irridenta reaching to the Mediterranean. Like maps of Albania Irridenta they must be regarded with a shrug of indifference.
My memories of my brief stay in Arbil three years ago include the clear recollection that virtually all goods enter the country through Turkey.
The Republic of Mahabad was not a Soviet puppet, but only the presence of Soviet forces in northern Iran made its brief life possible …
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mahabad
… is there a government-in-exile which still issues passports?
Nav, I didn’t say that Kurds had not been very badly treated, I am pointing out that they have Turkish citizenship and the formal legal and political rights attached thereto (I was not using “enjoy” in the sense of “experiencing pleasure”, if that is the source of the confusion). Palestinians in the occupied territories and in exile don’t have any such rights. Israel does not seek to forcibly assimilate them, but to force them out.
The autopsy reports show the activists were shot multiple times at close range. An independent inquiry needs to be called for and a campaign to lift the blockade I am sure will receive 100% support from the left.
Very interesting report on events by the famous Swedish novelist, Henning Mankell. He considers that Israel committed piracy, murder, kidnapping and theft. Quite a charge sheet.
Some facts on the Israeli blockade, Gaza unemployment 44%. 8 out 10 Gazan’s are dependent on aid, number of people defined as ‘abject poor’ has increased by 200,000 in the last year! GDP per capita has fallen 76% in the last 10 years! It is reported by aid agencies that aid allowed into Gaza is only a fraction of what is needed. Hence the heroic efforts to bring relief by the activists. Only a fraction of the needed gas and oil are entering Gaza. Gaza is joint first in the world on people living below the poverty line.
No doubt 100% of the left will continue its efforts to end this inhuman, criminal action by the Israeli state. Criminality that belongs in the pantheon of all great historic crimes.
What crime ? 9 jihadists met their god. As they wished !
GW
Fantastic article here on ‘people’ like Zionist Tory Scum
http://meldungen-aus-dem-exil.noblogs.org/post/2010/06/04/the-agricola-principle-how-israel-and-its-apologists-defend-the-indefensible
JOHNNO,08:49. You sad person with a propensity for hyperbole. And your last the link. Some people do love to read what they want to hear. So no reports of violence on the boarded famine ship. Surprised I am the Irish do like their bits of flesh especially when blown across the streets of Belfast. You will be disapointed JOHNNO. No confrontation no deaths nothing to winge about. You have to explain this Zionist Tory Scum thing that seems to give you great pleasure in repeating. What is it!
JOHNNO. You claimed the autopsy report said people had been shot multiple times. Why are you concerned about a waste of rounds! And what about that childish claim from you and Harris that this is a diversion.
Jimmy,
I won’t bother responding to the majority of your points as you are clearly intellectually challenged to use the politically correct term. Just one point, Zionist Tory Scum is GW’s self appointed name and not mine. (see other thread). Judging by his comments it is name he is well suited to.
Yeah JOHNNO you leftie intellects! do have a problem in being unable to get a simple majority from the British electorate. Where are you clever guys going wrong! You do not have to indulge in this Tory Zionist Scum thing. Sounds possibly racist and devisive to me. You certainly are not racist are you JOHNNO.
Wow, some quality debate on this thread, especially from you, Mr Glesga. What next? Are you going to tell everyone they smell of POO times a million no returns?
Col Richard Hindrance (Mrs) with more decorations than Kenny Everett. Welcome to the POO. Bar and Buffet is just up my alley!
I don’t know whether this post is a diversion or not but the situation between Turkey and the Kurdish population of Turkey is as described by Pharisee. And Pharisee’s description isn’t contradicted by Nav. However there is more to the Palestinian situation than that described by Pharisee. Israel is a state for the world’s Jews, established by colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing and racist laws.
I don’t know what Dave Osler means by saying that the Turkey/Kurdish situation is more intractable than the Israel/Palestine situation. The Kurds in Turkey are denied statehood and their linguistic rights and there are human rights abuses bound up with Kurdish expressions of their aspirations. The Palestinians are not simply denied statehood but all basic human rights and the majority of them are victims (or their immediate descendants) of an ethnic cleansing campaign without which, Israel would not exist.
The granting to the Kurds of either their right to speak their own language or independent statehood would not impinge on Turkey’s existence as a nation state, though of course it would cover a smaller area.
The granting to the Palestinians of all of their human rights (including the right to return and to live anywhere throughout Palestine) together with the removal of privileges for Jews under Israeli law would place a question mark over the continued existence of the State of Israel, certainly as a state for the world’s Jews and possibly as a state officially called “The State of Israel”.
Judging from his previous posts on Israel, Dave Osler seems determined not to understand what it is that makes Israel such a particular pariah in the eyes of consistent anti-racists. It is not the quantity of Israel’s crimes that is most problematic but like the apartheid state of South Africa, it is the quality of Israel’s crimes that makes it stand out.
The idea of the Kurds aspiration to statehood is not the same as a Palestinian aspiration to statehood. Kurdish aspirations to statehood, such as they are, are based on the Kurdish identity deriving from the land of Kurdistan. The Palestinian aspiration to statehood, if we mean Palestinian statehood as distinct from a democratic secular replacement for Israel and the occupied territories, is a major concession to the racist war criminals of the State of Israel given that Israel would still exist as a racist colony based on colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing and racist laws. Of course, Dave Osler wasn’t clear about what he meant by Palestinian aspirations to statehood but by comparing it to a Kurdish state he implies partition in both cases.
There is of course, something nauseating about the Turkish regime playing at humanitarian concern but it is no more nauseating than people who ought to know better making out that Israel is simply a common or garden serial human rights abuser. Other states abuse human rights. Israel’s core existence is predicated on its abuse of human rights.
So really, the question that Dave asks about how many people have been killed by the illegitimate entity, the State of Israel, is completely irrelevant to the offence that Israel causes around the world.
levi9909. It was genocide and ethnic cleansing that removed the Jews from Israel and scattered them all over the world. They always had an aspiration to return and have. They will no doubt claim that they are entitled to regain the land of their ancestor’s just like the Palestinians are doing. So how can a compromise be reached between the Jews and Palestinians! I doubt if this can be achieved. There are far to many surrounding Israel that would wipe them out given the chance. You have to remember that even before the present State of Israel was created there was regular pogroms by the Arabs against the Jews. The Grand Mufti of Palestine was intent on the genocide of the Jews. Perhaps you could suggest a solution! Maybe a final one.
Re: pharisee’s comment “all Kurds do enjoy full Turkish citizenship and the same formal rights as any other Turkish citizen” vs. “the majority of Palestinians in the occupied territories … simply have no rights whatsoever under Israeli rule”.
I wonder whether the Palestinians would be content to call themselves “Israelis”, speak Hebrew, partake in Israeli/Jewish culture and be granted “full citizenship rights” under Israel while at the same time being forbidden to speak Arabic or practice their culture.
And, what if there were not tens of other Arabic countries where the Arabic language, culture and heritage lived on? What if the Arabs were a minority in only 3 other countries and they were brutally repressed, stripped of their citizenship rights (in Syria), or forcefully assimilated (Iran) in the others? The fate of the Kurds in Iraq is TBA. How would you assess the Palestinian predicament then?
When you truly consider the struggle of the Kurds it is an existential one. For the last 80 years the Turkish state has been hard at work claiming the Kurds are “Mountain Turks”, that the Kurdish language is not a real language, that the Kurds are nothing more than misguided nomads and that the Turkish culture is far superior to anything the Kurds could ever dream of. Unfortunately, some Kurds have believed that and they are living as Turks with their “full citizenship rights”. For those Kurds who have not accepted systematic, forced assimilation their lot is not as fair — they have been killed, tortured, imprisoned or exiled – or, in other words, it is cruel to suggest they “ENJOY full citizenship rights”.
Bottom line, each Kurd in Turkey who dares to proclaim he/she is a Kurd and who seeks rights for Kurds is an enemy of the state. Therefore, “Kurds” as such have no meaningful citizenship rights in Turkey.
supporting the Kurdish national movement was quite fashionable on the left in Europe during the 80ies and 90ies but lost its appeal after some problematic manoevering of the PKK in the late 1990ies and the imprisonment of Abdullah Öcalan in 1999 on the one hand and due to the alliance of the main Iraqi Kurdish orgs with the free west, the continuing atrocities by the regimes in Turkey, Syria and Iran against “its” Kurdish minorities became only a topic for some “specialists” on the left and for refugee rights campaigners while whose who were simply looking for somebody “to identify with” found other movements
p.s.: a organization in Kurdistan which definitely deserves our support is Komalah, the autonomous section of the CPI in Iranian Kurdistan: http://www.komalah.org/old/index.htm
p.p.s.: another often forgotten case is that of Western Sahara
Jimmy Glesga – you are invoking matters from biblical times and getting it arseways in the process. You are also promoting the racial myth that the Jews of today are the direct descendants of the Israelites of biblical times with the concomitant myth that the Palestinians can’t be descendants of natives.
At the time of what you call the “ethnic cleansing” of Jews from Israel, there were estimated to be over 4 times as many Jews living outside Palestine as inside.
Your generalisation that “They always had an aspiration to return and have” is more racist claptrap. You cannot attribute an aspiration to so many millions of people especially when most Jews in any generation have not migrated to Palestine when there was no restriction on them doing so. That counts even more now when Jews are not simply allowed to settle in Palestine but are positively encouraged and even paid to do so. In spite of this, the overwhelming majority of Jews prefer to remain outside Palestine.
There were not regular pogroms by Arabs against Jews and even if there were this does not justify the ethnic cleansing and regular pogroms against Palestinians.
There were fairly regular pogroms against Jews in Europe but no one suggests that there should be a state in Europe for the world’s Jews at the expense of non-Jewish natives.
But the reason I left comments here at all was not to engage with your wilful stupidness but because I am worried about Dave Osler persisting in his comparisons of Israel with other serial human abusers and his ignoring of those of us who highlight Israel’s lack of core legitimacy which makes it stand out from other rogue states.
In this instance, there is not the direct comparison of Kurdistan and Palestine that Dave Osler makes out. Israel exists because Palestine does not. Turkey does not exist because Kurdistan does not. Turkey and Kurdistan can coexist with full rights for all of their people. If Israel and Palestine coexist as adjacent entities then Israel will have got away with the dispossession of most of the Palestinian people historically and on an on-going basis.
Prevail, no I don’t think Palestinians would be happy with the Kurdish lot, nor presumably would Kurds change places with the Palestinians. Both would aspire to something better, my point is simply that there is no real parallel between the two situations. Again, lest there be any misunderstanding, “enjoy” in English can mean simply “to possess”, rather than “to experience pleasure”.
We’re back to 1914 in terms of propaganda, aren’t we?
All we need are a few tales that the Israelis are raping nuns and cutting off Belgian – or Palestinian – babies’ hands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurse_Nayirah
… the Hymies – of whom I effing bloody despair at times – need a FAR better PR agency! [This has been discussed in furious tones in Haaretz.]
levi9909. Israel was a legitimate State in what you call biblical times. And is now a UN recognised State. That is all that matters. You can question whether Israel is legitimate or not. The fact is it exists whether you like it or not. I do not promote Israel. Israel should move back to its border agreed with the UN. You had a lot to say in your previous but chose to ignore the genocidal agenda of the Grand Mufti of Palestine.
Can someone enlighten me as to how Palestinians are devoid of “all human rights” when the Israeli government recognizes them as Palestinians, enters into negotiations with their representatives and they have elected their own government – led by Hamas. No citizenship rights means precisely that – none – but as I see it they possess some rights and some Israeli leaders have at least recognized the Palestinian right to a state of their own. If Egypt were to give a large tract of land to Palestine and recognize it as an independent country would Israel seriously object?
Isn’t the problem about land? The Israelis aren’t opposed to Palestinian statehood — they simply don’t want to give up the land that they conquered by force. Historically, which country can claim a “just” founding? Haven’t our borders been drawn by blood and countless people dispossessed of their land in that process?
I agree that the Kurdish problem is not as intractable because Kurds continue to live as a majority in their historic lands. What makes it problematic of course is that even though there is an easy solution, it makes little difference until the Turkish state behaves reasonably. Until then, the problem is just as ‘intractable’.
Jimmy Glesga – Israel does not exist because of the genocidal agenda of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. The zionists were not troubled by him either before or after the ethnic cleansing that gave Israel its Jewish majority. UN recognition confers legality of sorts but not legitimacy. Israel was admitted as a “peace loving state”. It was also supposed to allow the Palestinian refugees to return. No anti-zionist has to omit any aspect of zionist history to make the case against Israel. Zionists like yourself have to ignore most of it including the zionists’ collaboration with various antisemitic forces including the nazis.
Prevail
Recognising the existence of the Palestinian people does not confer rights on them. Most Palestinians are denied the right to return to their homeland and Israel can kill any Palestinian anywhere with apparent impunity. Even Palestinian citizens of Israel have been killed by the authorities in circumstances where Jews would not be killed for the same thing and without punishment for their killers.
It’s true that nearly all zionists claim to support a two state solution but when you challenge them on what they intend for a Palestinian state it doesn’t amount to much land and it doesn’t amount to the powers one associates with statehood. But when has what a state says about the rights of its victims got to do with the rights they actually have? I remember seeing a film where a white pro-slavery activist points to a white man apparently with his black slave and said “look, man and slave in perfect harmony”. I don’t think the interests of white slaveowners and black slaves were in harmony and I don’t think the rights of Palestinians are compatible or in harmony with the interests of zionism.
Regarding “just founding”, there are no people anywhere in the world who can claim they are denied the right to return to anywhere in the UK. That is even sillier than the usual excuses that zios come out with. But the question should be, which state invites people from all around the world to come and live there whilst denying that right to people that actually come from there, NOW, and for the foreseeable future? If we follow your logic we might just as well allow any group of people to settle anywhere, drive out whoever they find there and then cherry pick a population more to their ethno-religious liking. Then all they have to do is say they recognise the existence of the dispossessed group and say that they can have a state but not where they used to live and hey presto! And who can complain? After all, Israel did it and hundreds of years before, other states did it including the UK.
I should point out, just to fend off the usual zio trickery, that I am aware that there have been other bouts of ethnic cleansing around the same time as the zios commenced theirs and since but since WWII no state owes its ethno-religious majority to the dispossession of a native majority by foreign conquerors in the first generation of their arrival.
Perhaps someone, with any expertise in the area or at least genuine concern, could tell us how the Arab states treat the Palestinians?
Do many of the Arab states leave the Palestinians festering in refugee camps ? Yes.**
Are the Palestinians allowed access to higher education ? Probably not in most states.**
There is widespread neglect of the Palestinians by ***all*** concerned, the Israelis, the Arab states, leaders and many supposed supporters in the West.
——
Jordon is an exception for obvious reasons.
True-ish Modernity, but you are surely able to see and are able to articulate the differences between all these various actors. Aren’t you?
I think Levi9909 spells it out rather well above.
Yes, it is true that the Arab states use the Palestinians as political footballs, but so few people will acknowledge that.
Etc etc.
In the Middle East it is common for many states (remember there are over 20 members of the Arab league) to proclaim their support of the Palestinians and do very little, they are left in refugee camps throughout the region.
More often than not Palestinians cannot gain access to higher education or decent work, and face many restrictions implemented by their supposed benefactors, in the Arab states.
There always seems to be plenty of money for rockets, AK-47s, bullets and the accoutrements of conflict but little to normalise and improve the quality of life of Palestinian refugees scattered throughout the region.
It is rather telling that in the region where oil provides masses of wealth, billions upon billions that Palestinian refugees often have to live in hovels in their “host” countries, rather than normalise their existence.
Modernity points to an intriguing factor re the Palestinians. With all the supposed support from the Arab and Islamic worlds, why are they capable only of firing what are little more than fireworks into Israeli territory, utterly ineffective except in giving Israel the excuse to bash them? Why, when the Israelis invade Gaza or nick more territory in the West Bank, do they not have even halfway effective anti-tank weapons, or weapons that could otherwise help them really mount a defence? Why are these not provided by their wealthy backers?
This keys into the appalling treatment of the Palestinians in the Arab states, the refusal of these regimes to integrate into the host countries.
I feel that the Arab and Islamic regimes don’t really want a solution to the Israel/Palestine problem. Whenever things get a bit hot at home for the rulers, they can shout a bit about Palestine, and thus try to divert the masses’ attention from their own problems to something across the border. The rulers have a vested interest in keeping the conflict going. So the Palestinians are not only prevented from having weapons that could really defend their positions and help force Israel to make a proper deal, they get weapons that actually help to extend the conflict rather than force it to a close.
A conspiracy theory, I hear you say. No doubt, but it’s a realistic one, I feel.
I think, Dr Paul, that things may have moved on a bit from the Arab regimes simply using the Palestinians as a distraction for the masses. The question of logistical support isn’t really valid given the difficulty in getting stuff into Palestine but the Arab regimes hardly offer any moral support these days and Egypt and Jordan have been openly collaborationist for decades now.
Regarding the refusal of Arab regimes to dissolve the refugee camps, this isn’t entirely their decision and the frontline states offered to take in two thirds of the Palestinian refugees back in 1949 (Victor Kattan – From Coexistence to Conflict etc) if Israel would allow the remaining 250 k to return. Israel refused and the Palestinians’ representatives preferred to demand their right to return en masse. The idea that Palestinians can simply lose themselves in any other Arab society is of course a racist idea that if you have met one Arab you have met them all.
But turning to Moddy’s main point, one of my fellow bloggers, Gabriel Ash, wrote a popular piece on “How to make the case for Israel and win“. He set out four easy to remember steps:
1. We rock
2. They suck
3. You suck
4. Everything sucks
Moddy usually goes for number three which is to accuse Israel’s critics (in particular anti-zionists) of antisemitism. This time he has gone for number 2 which is to point out how nasty the Arab regimes are, in this instance to the Palestinians.
Actually there is quite a lot of criticism of the Arab regimes collectively and individually on the left and in the mainstream media. The Palestinian leadership rarely criticises Arab regimes no matter how pisspoor they are on the Palestine question. I think it is even true to say that Jordan has killed more Palestinians than Israel has and it even collaborated with the zionists/State of Israel in the first Arab Israeli war but Jordan’s existence isn’t predicated on its mistreatment of the Palestinians like Israel’s is. In fact no Arab state’s existence is predicated on the kind of ethnic cleansing upon which Israel’s existence is predicated. And of course, if it wasn’t for the existence of the State of Israel being based for the most part on the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, the question of how Palestinian diasporists are treated elsewhere wouldn’t arise.
But we rarely hear excuses for the Arab regimes like we do for the racist war criminals of the State of Israel.
I know many on the left disagree with me when I say that Israel is uniquely despised because Israel is uniquely despicable but I am yet to be told of an extant state which bars natives from returning whilst inviting foreigners to settle there.
But there is also the question of support for a serial human rights abuser. Apart from the basis upon which it exists Israel is also unique for the level of support it gets in the western media and political establishment in spite of zionism being a clear negation of professed western values of democracy, liberty and the rule of law and in spite of its relentless aggression and appalling human rights record.
In fairness there is no state like Israel but there are appalling human rights abusers. Can anyone name a serial human rights abuser that has resident apologists throughout the media and political establishment like Israel has? Really, I’m asking. Don’t just name the state. Name the hack or paper that supports it. So it isn’t just the illegitimate basis for Israel’s existence that generates so much opposition but the support it gets, usually involving dishonesty, avoidance, projection and obfuscation that is an issue in its own right.
But do remember the four steps set out by Gabriel Ash. It works like an instant bullshit detector.
I think Dr Paul makes a valid point, that Arab rulers use the Palestinian issue to manipulate it’s masses, to divert attention away from themselves. Maybe the Turkish prime minister has this agenda also. There were demo’s in Iran against the flotilla attack by israel, which no doubt would have heartened the regime there.
What this tells me is that the fight against Zionism isn’t only correct as a response to the injustice brought against the Palestinians but is also a fight against reaction throughout the region.
I firmly believe that the Palestinians should have a state of their own, but, to insist upon returning to all of their historic lands would invite conflict and war with little chance of success because as you say, in order for Palestine to exist as it once did, the Israeli state must be dismantled and that will be an existential struggle, which are hard fought and harder won.
I don’t mean to delegate the Palestinian cause to a lesser level of importance, however, ethnic cleansing is not unique nor is the fact that modern states are built upon ethnic cleansing. The one example that readily comes to mind is the genocide inflicted against the Armenians. They were expelled from Turkey allowing the racist Turkish state (one nation, one language, one people) to be born. The Turkish state continues to blockade Armenia and deny the genocide. The Armenians, however, as far as I know, are not planning on returning to Turkey nor would they be welcome in Turkey in large numbers.
The Natives of North America don’t exist in a meaningful way because the European settlers took over their land. Who could in their right mind advise the Natives of the USA or the First Nations of Canada to struggle against the U.S.A. or Canada to regain their land? The Arab states have not been willing to help the Palestinians and have used them to pacify their own people. There is a time when you have to mitigate your losses and concentrate on building a better future for the Palestinian people.
But Prevail your logic means we should never raise a voice against brutality, genocide or ethnic cleansing. It says if a precedent was set in the past then this becomes a law which we cannot ever criticise. So Witch burning would be ok. It allows for no enlightened, progressive view.
So you can shove your logic and stand up for the rights of Palestinians and against the racist state.
My logic dictates that the Palestinian question is not unique in history. I also believe that Israelis are deserving of a homeland, especially considering the many racist attitudes that are prevalent against Jews (with or without a state of their own). The fact that they got prime real estate in the Middle East is unjust but not racist. Israel is not against Palestinian “right” to a state; it appears to me that the state of Israel simply wants to exist. To fight for the rights of Palestinians means to me to support the existence of a viable Palestinian state — not to dismantle Israel or deny its right to exist.
levi9909. I am not a Zionist as you say or indeed a follower of any religious nutterdom. But I kind of suspect you are!
levi9909. So you say the Zionists as you call them as opposed to normal Jewish people were not concerned about the proposed genocidal ideaology of the Grand Mufti. You are saying they were not concerned about genocide. They did not mind being slaughtered. You are unravelling levi9909. You do go on a lot but the more you rabble on the better. The Mufti was calling for the genocide of the Jews long before the State of Israel.
“Moddy usually goes for number three which is to accuse Israel’s critics (in particular anti-zionists) of antisemitism.”
Mark Elf often reminds me of the saying about Richard Nixon, “if he ever found himself saying the truth he would lie to keep his hand in”.
There are many anti-Zionists who use and contribute to Dave Ostler’s blog, you won’t find me accusing them of antisemitism.
If you believe that’s the case please produce the evidence, but you know, Elf, there is none.
I don’t think with the exception of Jock McTrousers that anyone here really is an antisemite, when clearly they are not.
Again, with one exception I don’t believe any of the Anti-Zionist posters here are antisemitic.
Instead I think a lot of people are incredibly lazy, ill informed and probably think reading scholarly books on the Middle East are for past generations.
No, most of the arguments you find are, in my view, the product of ignorance, intellectual laziness, character defects, the inability to admit when wrong and frankly a lot of stupidity that whirls around in the popular culture.
But I would be incredibly surprised if any of them here are motivated by antisemitism, that doesn’t seem very likely, in my experience.
So please Elf, next time when you wish to put words in my mouth and misrepresent my views, please at least have the courtesy to ask my opinion.
I am not renowned for being shy.
In no particular order:
……..
Jimmy Glesga – I have no time for religion so I don’t know what you’re talking about. I don’t want to burst your bubble here but you are not the first person to cover for the racist war criminals of the State of Israel and then claim that you are not a zionist. If you believe that it is perfectly permissible for a state to exist for the world’s Jews and not for the people that actually live there or come from there then then the inference that you are a zionist is far more reasonable than your notion that a democratic secularist atheist like myself is some kind of religious person.
Prevail – There may be unique features of the Palestinian case in history, not least the fact that they have the most powerful forces ever ranged against a largely defenceless population so that a state that never truly represents an in situ community can exist on the land from which Palestinians originate. But any historical uniqueness (or not) is beside the point. The case of the Palestinians has many features – colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing, segregation – that are all too repetitive in history. But they are not so common now. It is the now-ness that is at issue. Your complacency is a recipe for war of all against all now and for the rest of time.
Moddy – You have simply restated point three of the Israel apologists charter by calling me a liar. I am not going to waste my time digging up examples of when you have falsely accused people, including contributors to my blog, of antisemitism. If this blog has coaxed you down from that particular hobby horse then mazel tov to Mr Osler.
But you have conveniently dodged the main point which is that you have invoked point two of the Israel apologists’ charter by raising issues around the well publicised human rights abuses by Arab regimes including their oppression and exclusion of the Palestinians. Your main point has been addressed in a lot of detail and so now you have reverted to a variant on point three and added a load of sanctimonious twaddle about scholarship and intellectual laziness.
Even if you were not an anonymous blogger (you’re not shy? when did you come out?) you would not be the main issue here. You have raised evasive issues around the well known character of Arab regimes (how much research did that require?) whilst avoiding the fact that two of them are overt collaborators with zionism and whilst ignoring the difference between Israel’s oppression of the Palestinians and the Arab states’ oppression of the same. Israel’s existence is predicated on its oppression of the Palestinians. No Arab state’s existence is predicated on colonial settlement, ethnic cleansing and segregationist laws. Their boundaries have been imposed on them by imperialists but their populations have not been displaced from or imposed on them in modern times as has happened in Palestine.
So Moddy, it’s nice that you are now refraining from false allegations of antisemitism (if indeed that is the case) but you have dodged the main issue that you have raised.
Jimmy Glesga – I have only just noticed this nonsense from you:
levi9909. So you say the Zionists as you call them as opposed to normal Jewish people were not concerned about the proposed genocidal ideaology of the Grand Mufti. You are saying they were not concerned about genocide. They did not mind being slaughtered. You are unravelling levi9909. You do go on a lot but the more you rabble on the better. The Mufti was calling for the genocide of the Jews long before the State of Israel.
The zionist programme for the colonisation, conquest and ethnic cleansing of Palestine was set out long before any incitement by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. I am not saying that Jews didn’t mind being slaughtered, you fucking idiot. Zionist leaders were not averse to Jews getting slaughtered, you have only to look at various statements made during the holocaust to know that, but that is not the same thing as Jews not minding themselves getting slaughtered. The main point here with regard to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem is that his existence was completely irrelevant to the implementation of the zionist project in Palestine though the zionists may have had to invent him if he hadn’t existed.
Can you butt out now, geezer? At least Moddy pretends to be serious.
“Moddy – You have simply restated point three of the Israel apologists charter by calling me a liar. I am not going to waste my time digging up examples of when you have falsely accused people, including contributors to my blog, of antisemitism.”
I am simply stating that you misrepresent my views.
Why you do it I don’t know.
So let me be very clear and you can quote me on this:
1) I do not think that any other posters I have run across on Dave’s blog are antisemites (with the exception of Jock McTrousers)
2) I think that a lot of these issues are the result of poor political education, ignorance, intellectual laziness, political spite, group think and the decline of anti-fascism.
3) Once more, I don’t think that any of the Anti-Zionist posters on Dave’s blog are antisemites, with one exception.
So Elf, please do yourself a favour, try to remember that, try to remember what I have written and don’t misrepresent my views.