Comments on: The far left and the general election

By: JOHNNO

JOHNNO — Tue, 11 May 2010 17:05:09 +0000

I still think it was an ill thought out comment, I still think you directly linked courting Muslims with dropping left politics, a position I reject for reasons already given. And I still think Respect were only ever Social Democratic, so I reject there have been any pretensions.

Though we both seem to agree that being compared to Denham is about as bad as insults get!

By: skidmarx

skidmarx — Tue, 11 May 2010 16:06:40 +0000

Yes, communities that are generally poor and oppressed tend to vote social democratic. But the more Respect wished to maximise its vote in the community the more it had to appeal to the lowest common denominator (within the community, not within society in general). This was always likely to lead to a dilution of what general socialist politics it had. There was also the pretension that IT was the left-of-labour left,seen in the argument at the time of the split that it as a minority of Respect should take over the name because it had the MP and most of the councillors, and over the recent election where some of its supporters derided TUSC, but still demanded the SWP actively campaign for Respect candidates. I think its inability to exert a hegemony over the far left is a good thing to come out of its defeat. There were still claims that Respect represented radical socialism as recently as March, though I might agree that the author of the comment linked to is one of their more deluded fans, Respect was trying to bridge that gap. While some like Cardinal Newman and Mark Perryman were always fairly open social democrats, and maybe the hint could have been taken from Galloway's rant about dead Russians at their first conference at about Trotskyists at the second, there were always those around Socialist Resistance and Southwark Respect who thought it would be more than that. It seems a waste of time to spend too much time kicking a dead horse. I'll just say that the word "pretension" is not that much of an insult, and if you were uncertain of my meaning you could have asked before lauching a tirade. Reading into people's comments what isn't there would seem to make you more like Jim Denham than I am. JImmy Glesga - saying that Respect can't be anti-war if it isn't against wars in all circumstances is like saying that someone can't be anti-capitalist if they have a bank account: it's fatuous. It's a convenient shorthand.

By: JOHNNO

JOHNNO — Tue, 11 May 2010 11:50:20 +0000

Well I never took Respect for being anything other than Social Democratic, just ask Galloway! If others had different ideas that is more to do with their delusions than anyone else’s pretensions.

By: skidmarx

skidmarx — Tue, 11 May 2010 11:21:51 +0000

When the split in Respect occured, the Renewal supporters derided the idea that they were a tight-wing split. The move towards social democracy exposes their position as one of pretension. And social democracy is based on the working class and they aren’t. Good post at the tOMB

By: JOHNNO

JOHNNO — Tue, 11 May 2010 09:49:58 +0000

I am not a supporter of Respect by the way. Call it defeatism if you will but these days I tend to get excited by any remotely left of centre victory and get saddened when they are defeated. In fact no one would have been happier than me if the AWL had performed well in this election!!-Which ties in with your identification with the working class argument. And let’s be clear Respect were never radical socialist to paraphrase Mr Glegsa.

So Chris Harman’s words about knowing the enemy are fine but in a period of almost total defeat knowing your friends is more important!

However, in relation to explaining society as it actually is then of course class in central to Marxists but not the whole story. This is important to our debate because I don’t accept Respect will move away from Social Democracy if they court Muslims more. (Though I don’t think this will happen) Part of this is for class reasons, minority groups tend be in the lower social classes etc but another reason is that the left tend to be active against discrimination, are more sympathetic to immigrants etc and therefore minority communities in Europe tend to vote for Social Democratic parties. Because of this fact I found your argument that Respect would drop its left pretensions when reinforcing its orientation on the Muslim community not only ill though out but pretty offensive. Ill thought out because empirically it doesn’t stand it and offensive because the word pretension indicates to me that Respect are promoting policies they don’t really believe in and sooner or later they will reveal their true position. Having debated endless Islamophobes you get suspicious of this suspicion of the political motives of Muslims or parties in any way connected to Muslims.

By: skidmarx

skidmarx — Tue, 11 May 2010 08:35:48 +0000

JOHNNO – I think you are too class minded when trying to explain the realties of modern society.
Me and Marxists for the last 160 years. The reason the SWP used to call for a vote for social democratic party like Labour was that such a vote showed a basic identification with the working class, calling for such a vote without there being any such connection seems to be a step backwards which requires some explanation.
The last time I had a discussion with johng about this he defended the SWP’s position partly on the basis that there was a “shifting locus of reformism”. That doesn’t seem to have been the case in this election, where the left vote has tended to stay with Labour. And here’s some words of Chris Harman’s I quoted then:
But the term can also be used to reinforce the illusion that minor changes in the running of parts of the system are all that is necessary to improve the situation of the mass of people. By the same token, those who see their fight as an “anti-neoliberal” one can move on to see it as “anti-capitalist”, but they can also slip back into conciliation with the system. Rhetoric and slogans have a role in politics, but they are not a substitute for clarity about the enemy and how to fight it.
http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=399
This would seem to fit Respect now that the bandwagon has stopped rolling.

By: Jimmy Glesga

Jimmy Glesga — Mon, 10 May 2010 20:47:02 +0000

JOHNNO. How can a so called radical socialist party like respect be anti war. Surely they must be prepared for war to win socialism. Maybe after reading Marx all those years ago I have become confused. Or maybe it is you JOHNNO that is confused.

By: Bill Corr

Bill Corr — Mon, 10 May 2010 14:55:43 +0000

Here’s the word on HP

http://hurryupharry.org/2010/05/10/tories-and-lib-dems-agree-deal/

Remember, O happy campers, that Grinning Tony and Surly Gordon have done such a spiffing job of building a vibrant and fairer Britain over the last 13 years that the UK now has to borrow eight quid a day for every one of you JUST TO MEET CURRENT EXPENDITURE.

Such acuity and brilliance!

By: JOHNNO

JOHNNO — Mon, 10 May 2010 14:51:45 +0000

“Though if you don’t think 2 would affect 1, I think your understanding of class may be a little faulty.”

This goes back to the idea/empirical fact of minority communities supporting left of centre parties. I think you are too class minded when trying to explain the realties of modern society. (That doesn’t mean I don’t think left parties should be class based just that explaining reality must bear in mind other things). Though as I also said generally speaking minority communities tend to be among the lower social classifications.

By: JOHNNO

JOHNNO — Mon, 10 May 2010 14:44:05 +0000

All parties try to maximise votes, and I don’t agree Respect will focus solely on the Muslim community. I would actually anticiapte an attempt to move beyond the anti war image (not that they won’t be anti war) and onto more solidly Social Democratic grounds. So they will promote more greatly their community work, opposing cuts to local services and the like.

Any new party must attempt to defend the base they have built up before moving beyond that base. If Respect ever come to ditch their Social Democracy this will have nothing to do with courting more Muslims but courting Middle England!

Having said that whether the dissapointment of the election results demoralises the party and as a result they wither I cannot say. I certainly hope they can survive and that they recognise Rome was not built in a day.