This development of faith schools does present an opportunity for an education system to develop as an alternative to the pathetically inadequate state provision.
A developed network of co-eperative producers (if we can imagine such a thing) could create it's own schooling system better tailored to its needs rather than the needs of the capitalist system and yes some left field ideas could be taught.

So instead of looking at faith schools purely from the arrogance of secularism we should also see the opportunities it presents.

One of the schools with the "worst name" in Barking and Dagenham for decades (confused me as a year 6 - "why don't they change it then" (they did, incidentally) has been assessed by the government. Their recommendation: turn it CoE. Brilliant. Is that the government's usual advice these days? School not the best, not even among some of the (statistically - and that's how "good vs bad schools" are measured) worst in the country - forget Mr. Superhead, take it away from the council, get in God? Bearing in mind the likely future composition of the council, there are probably worse alternatives.

What's wrong with a bit of educational diversity ?

"Let a hundred flowers blossom, let a hundred schools (of thought) contend" as someone once said.

Those of us raised in former hotbeds of knuckle-dragging dumbarse sectarianism can tell you that letting religious scum anywhere near education is the mother of fucking stupid ideas.

"As the experience of Northern Ireland and Scotland underlines, religious segregation acts as a major force for the maintenance of sectarian communalism"
Can you provide any actual evidence for this, or explain why religious segregation has not led to the maintenance of sectarian communalism elsewhere?

or explain why religious segregation has not led to the maintenance of sectarian communalism elsewhere?

Miscegenation...well, whatever the God bothering equivalent is anyway.

Nothing renders sour-faced, dirty preachers more moot than rampant randiness.

As someone who's not noted for being as meek as a lamb, can I say that when somebody talks of the 'arrogance of secualarism' my hackles hack no end.

Nothing could possibly be more arrogant than the belief that there is a god, an afterlife, and a special group of privileged people called the faithful.

Letting this bunch lose on children's education is pure kiddie fiddling.

The criticisms are all correct but why focus on potential Islamic schools? I would expect such to teach no more or less guff than, say, Baptist schools.

The only difference between, say, that of the Catholic Church and Scientologists is that one is more powerful than the other. There is no more science in either of their ludicrous beliefs.

I'm with scratch on not giving an inch to the religious. Abolish all faith schools.

And it is an interesting point about 'Trot' schools. I wonder if, as would be be more likely, that those with more cash make the first move here - a libertarian school or an 'Adam Smith' school or a 'traditional values' school.

Although of course, a lot of right-wing stuff is in the curriculum already. I watched Panorama the other day with a senior police officer threatening a group of 14 year old, mainly black, kids that he would come after them under the 'Joint Enterprise' law (where if you are with someone who stabs someone, even if you didn't know he intended to and walk away before the event, you will also be found guilty of that murder.). 'If you transgress, we will get you all' he threatened (and 'Joint Enterprise' includes all violent crimes - and more?).

This all took place in the classroom with the teacher sat alongside as part of the civics lesson. Somehow I don't think schoolkids in Harrogate will suffer the same level of police intervention despite it being a national curriculum.

Cops out of schools.

Pharisee, you can't be serious. I can't see how educationally separating children on the basis of their religions is going to help socialise them to understand and respect each other.

I don't see how anyone who claims to be a socialist can approve of a system of schooling that institutionalises the division of our class.

Faith achools are inherently restrictive in employment practices as well. If you're a teacher that has no religious beliefs, try applying for a job at a faith school and see how far it gets you.

Can I just repeat my quote for the benefit of Mr Coates,

"So instead of looking at faith schools purely from the arrogance of secularism we should also see the opportunities it presents."

The word purely means that yes we criticise the concept of faith schools but do it in a way which doesn't imply support for the capitalist state education, and in a way that allows us to imagine how socialists conceive of society developing.

Sadly most of the comments above cannot free themselves of bourgeois concepts. Is it little wonder the left are so weak?

Is there any evidence that faith schools get better results?

" The Top 50 schools in Scotland, Sunday Times, October 19th 2006. ONE Roman Catholic secondary in Scotland makes the top 50. " The others are ALL 'non-denominational'.

Haven't got a link but, if anyone's interested I'll post the list

Haven't got a link but, if anyone's interested I'll post the list

Go for it...

Glasgow and North Lanarkshire have more 'faith schools' than anywhere in Scotland. Glasgow is the worst performing council followed by North Lanarkshire. The best results are found in East Renfrewshire, the worst in Glasgow. East Ren is the richest council in Scotland - Glasgow the poorest. No doubt fans of faith schools and their 'ethos' can explain this somehow. I'd just love some of these to visit a faith school in the East End of Glasgow and see how they find the 'ethos' there...

There was a kerfuffle about 30 years ago when the pre-split WRP held some kind of summer school, and the media got hold of it and wrote of brainwashing sessions and indoctrination. Hypocritically, of course.

Mark. The WRP did run a school of Marx. It was raided and some 303 bullets were conveniently found nearby. It was a school of Marx and Trotsky and like any other faith school it was indoctrinating its pupils. I had a stash of the old workers press for years. Quite a good paper. The communist party always claimed the WRP was covertly paid for by the state. Scotland only done away with its compulsory non-denominational! christian religious instruction during the seventies. I was subjected to it. The worst culprit was my Hindu teacher who obeyed orders. He was a nice man though. He run the school fitba team. Currently in Scotland we have a lot of talk from the present Gov about sectarianism but no action. They did have plenty of votes from some of the fundamentalist Catholics that are opposed to abortion, sex education for children, mixed children sharing the same playground etc. The Catholic Bishops turned their backs on Labour for the first time in decades. The power of the Bishops over Labour has been waining for years. I suspect none of the parties in Scotland will rock the boat. It is not a vote winner but potentially a loser if you upset the Bishops.

"So why not Karl Marx Comp, where students get to study permanent revolution alongside evolution"

Sounds a little like my kid's school (the boy) if the lefty BS he constantly returns home with is anything to go by.

Err no David, the idea that Camerons claims of Hizb ut Tahrir involvement in schools is "at best, not proven." is to pander to Camerons prejudices. The fact is every single substantial issue the Tories claime were false: the schools were registered for inpection; the schools weren’t funded by money for combating antiterrorism; ISF isn’t a front for Hizb ut-Tahrir; the head of one of the schools was never a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir.

Even the claim that a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir was a school governor was false – she was the wife of member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and she stood down.

Moreover I find David’s love in for state imposed secularism somewhat worrying.

Dave, this may well 'present a problem' for the establishment parties but it ought to be a total no-brainer for anyone styling themselves a socialist. Complete seperation of state and church is a fecking nonsense while we still have centres for the indocrination of children, i.e. 'faith' schools.
I can think of few more vomit-inducing concepts. As Coatsey said it's kiddie fiddling of a vile kind. Abolition of ALL faith schools should be basic ABC of any half-decent, even semi-coherent, revolutionary organisation. Of course the SWP would bottle this for fear of upsetting their Clerical Fascist mates while the AWL would run screaming in fear at adopting any kind of policy that would rock their Pro-Zionist, Islama-phobic, Arab-Murdering boat.
There. That should be sufficently contentious ;-)

Whilst I am all for tolerating religious beliefs I think it is very clear that they can be incredibly divisive and socially destructive, under many circumstances.

Socialists and many others have long believed in the separation of church and state, with good cause, because if you don't then you have conservative and reactionary ideas filtering across from the religious domain.

And it is extremely cheeky to take sideswipes at secularists particularly as the Catholic Church is embroiled in a long-running sexual abuse scandal in Ireland (and elsewhere).

I'm in agreement with Doug and SPP, all faith schools should be abolished. If people wish religious instruction than they can do it outside of the school.

Children should be taught critical thinking skills not about sky spirits (or even the flying spaghetti monster).

Socialists and others would do well to remember that this topic has been discussed for the last 200+ years and the lesson to learn is to clearly grant freedom **for** religious beliefs.

But as important, is freedom **from** religious beliefs, freedom from religious coercion and abuse, which ultimately necessitates a degree of pragmatic secularism to ensure that powerful religious groupings (the Catholic Church is but one example) do not exert a backward looking influence on society as a whole.

...and there, thanks to Modernity, is as neat and concise a policy on the question that any left organisation needs. Cut and paste into your groups material,comrades.

It looks like the Islamists have been exposed according to the BBC News just on. Seems Cameron was right maybe! Sometimes the Tories may get it right and SOME of left are wrong! I do wonder why some so called Marxists have to defend fiction.

I think Shuggy was expressing an interest in this, so here it is ( I can't remember where I got this, so you'll have to do your own verification):

The Top 50 schools in Scotland, Sunday Times, October 19th 2006. ONE Roman Catholic secondary in Scotland makes the top 50.

Number School Location Denomination
1 Jordanhill School Glasgow Non Denominational
2 Williamwood High School Clarkston Non Denominational
3 Cults Academy Aberdeen Non Denominational
4 Mearns Castle High School Newton Mearns Non Denominational
5 Banchory Academy Banchory Non Denominational
6 St Ninians High School Giffnock RC
7 Anderson High School Lerwick Non Denominational
8 Gryffe High School Gryffe Non Denominational
9 Linlithgow Academy Linlithgow Non Denominational
10 Dunblane High School Dunblane Non Denominational
11 Boroughmuir High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
12 The Royal High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
13 Douglas Academy Milngavie Non Denominational
14 James Gillespie's High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
15 North Berwick High School North Berwick Non Denominational
16 Aberdeen Grammar School Aberdeen Non Denominational
17 Bearsden Academy Bearsden Non Denominational
18 Lenzie Academy Lenzie Non Denominational
19 Westhill Academy Westhill Non Denominational
20 Peebles High School Peebles Non Denominational
21 Balfron High School Balfron Non Denominational
22 Breadalbane Academy Aberfeldy Non Denominational
23 Castle Douglas High School Castle Douglas Non Denominational
24 Balerno High School Edinburgh Non Denominational
25 Glen Urquhart High School Drumnadrochit Non Denominational
26 Ullapool High School Ullapool Non Denominational
27 Gourock High School Gourock Non Denominational
28 Gairloch High School Gairloch Non Denominational
29 Wallace Hall Academy Dumfriesshire Non Denominational
30 Fortrose Academy Fortrose Non Denominational
31 Kinross High School Kinross Non Denominational
32 Ellon Academy Ellon Non Denominational
33 Mackie Academy Stonehaven Non Denominational
34 Belmont Academy Ayr Non Denominational
35 Earlston High School Earlston Non Denominational
36 Turnbull High School Glasgow Non Denominational
37 Moffat Academy Moffat Non Denominational
38 Alford Academy Alford Non Denominational
39 Knox Academy Haddington Non Denominational
40 Grove Academy Dundee Non Denominational
41 Largs Academy Largs Non Denominational
42 Madras College St Andrews Non Denominational
43 Monifieth High School Monifieth Non Denominational
44 Eastwood High School Newton Mearns Non Denominational
45 Webster's High School Angus Non Denominational
46 Boclair Academy Bearsden Non Denominational
47 Oldmacher Academy Aberdeen Non Denominational
48 Greenock Academy Greenock Non Denominational
49 Kirkudbright Academy Kirkudbright Non Denominational
50 Craigmount High School Edinburgh Non Denominational

By the waY, I think this must be a list of state schools only, since Fettes, Gordonstoun, Kelvinside Academy and lots of other private or fee-paying (to some extent) are missing.

Religious belief can, in certain circumstances, be very divisive and destructive but in just as many cases it can promote social solidarity of a positive kind and make people that are bereft of hope believe that they can be greater than what they are.

Now if your talking about separation of church and state then I'm all up for it with bells on, French style.

But we also have to recognise that religion, as a social constuct and universal world view can be a liberating force from desperation and anomie. It gets to the personal in a way that present day political thought is simply incapable.

In the absence of a greater alternative religion will continue to play a significant role in the lives of millions of people who would otherwise be utterly without hope, purpose and direction.

Is there an alternative that can capture the hearts of so much of humanity in the same way or better? I'm suggesting this as a challenge in the hope of inspiration...

Weston Bay. Well fine if you are into fiction and fantasy then why not Walt Disney. Give children a choice. No indoctrination until after leaving school. Then leave it to them to decide. You can be a good person without religion Weston!

Most of the time a CofE school differs very little from a community school (i.e. nondenominational), especially if they're 'voluntary controlled' rather than 'voluntary aided'. The CofE has schools for historical reasons, being a pioneer of free education in places no one else bothered with, which added up to much of the country. Anyway, schools have been pissed around with so much that the expensive task of buying out faith schools would just create chaos for little practical effect. After all, there are just a handful of schools that get away with the creationism stuff.

Faith schools get money from the LEAs, and that should be our public leverage on them. We could use threat of withdrawal of funds to ban religious tests for teacher employment (should teachers' union complain that a significant proportion of senior jobs come with religious tests), to get non-sectarian admissions policies, insist on following agreed curricula and a serious rethink on 'collective worship'.

I spoke to a headteacher of a community primary school a few years back, who said going over to the CofE is attractive, because little changes but you get a far more attentive staff at the Diocesan Board of Education than at the LEA. If parents also mindlessly associate CofE schools with a good education, then you'd want to get their name on the sign too.

Yes Jimmy, I know you can be a good person without religion. As a 'lapsed Catholic' I like to think I'm a fairly decent, humane chap myself.

The point I'm trying to make is that while doctrinaire religious teaching can be extremely negative, religious belief in general can often be an inspiration for those who have little or nothing to look forward to or define their existence by. It can also engender the type of social solidarity the contemporary Left can only dream of. In the absence of an alternative.

Do you get what I'm hinting at here? Y'know, alternative? Or am I just getting ahead of myself here.

Weston Bay,

I think that when discussing these issues it is helpful to differentiate between individual religious belief, organised religion and the societal facts of religious domination.

I think socialists, secularists and others should primarily be concerned with the latter two.

As for religious belief, the evidence suggests that there are physical benefits to a positive belief system, etc

Equally, there is a strong argument to suggest that humans are pre-programmed (or more correctly some humans) with a predisposition towards religious belief. Scientific studies suggest that such a characteristic is a helpful evolutionary tool (filling in the gaps when hard evidence isn't there).

So I think we have to accept that religious belief will not die away, or be crushed by some Dawkinian scheme of logic, but surely we should be concerned with the societal consequences of religious domination and all that follows from it?

I was going to argue that organised religion is the sole problem, but frankly (unorganised) gun toting fundamentalist Christians in America really scare me, and I think if you look at Fred Phelps & co, for example, you can see where that sense of superiority, which afflicts many religious zealots, leads to.

Again, we should, I believe, be more focused in ensuring that children are not indoctrinated or abused by virtue of a State education. Religious belief should not be excessively privileged or there will be, in my view, detrimental effects for society. I’m happy for people to believe in sky spirits if that’s what they want, but I don’t want it inflicted on me and I want the ability not to believe in sky spirits, etc., it cuts both ways.

Weston. Is being lapsed kind of like keeping your options open. You can become unlapsed at the last moment as you are about to snuff it. Then you are saved from whatever was put into your head when you were a youngster. No I do not think you are getting ahead of yourself. I do not know what you are hinting. Sorry.

Modernity you're right. I should have made a distinction between organised and state religion and the more informal religious belief of local communities with their church, synagogue etc which is what I had in mind. You could call it a more benign form of religion that predisposes people to charity and altruism rather than acts of spite or, in extreme cases, violence.

Just for the record I'm also up for doing away with faith schools and their replacement with a universal, and inspiring secular state education. Free at the point of use of course.

The problem I see here is that the valid criticism of faith schools seems to move on to a criticism of religious belief in general. And that's where I have a problem, esp. as much of this comes from contemporary middle class liberals who, I would suggest, tend to look down their noses at the 'less enlightened' masses and yet are too lazy to offer an alternative.

That's what I'm getting at here. It's simply no use casting a jaundiced eye at religious teaching and beliefs without at least suggesting something better ie humanism or a belief system as yet unnamed.

This is probably where I'm getting ahead of myself... by a few centuries.

Weston. Why a better belief system. Surely that would have to man made fiction. Hardly any point in changing! Surely education is about what is known. It is OK to look into the unknown in the interest of science etc. But plese do not make up any more fiction and disguise it as the truth.

If you want the kids to understand that planetary orbits are elliptical not circular, you need to teach them not just permanent revolution but deflected permanent revolution as well.

Equally, there is a strong argument to suggest that humans are pre-programmed (or more correctly some humans) with a predisposition towards religious belief. Scientific studies suggest that such a characteristic is a helpful evolutionary tool (filling in the gaps when hard evidence isn't there).
What studies? Produce the links or we'll be calling you a bullshitter again. Actually there is a strong argument that humans have consciousness sufficient to build their beliefs of rationality rather than superstition, and that children are disposed by their parents towards the same brand of nonsense they themselves believed in. The ability to extrapolate and belief in things that aren't there are not the same.

Dave darling,

When are you going to change the design of your blog? It is all looking rather passe, son.

@jock mctrousers

Thanks. About the list excluding private schools: don't know all of these but James Gillespie's in Edinburgh certainly is private. Mebbe Fettes etc. aren't all the fees crack them up to be? I know Kelvinside here in sunny Glasgow doesn't have a particularly good reputation... The only RC school on the list is in East Renfrewshire. The only school from Glasgow, and at the top, is Jordanhill. This being because it's independent of Glasgow Shitty Council...

Hmmm, 10% of top fifty from Edinburgh but at least one of these is private. Another 10%, none of which is private, from East Ren - Turnbull High wrongly described as being in Glasgow on the list. So the two councils with the most 'faith schools,, Glasgow and North Lanarkshire? Not a sausage.

Sorry...

Shuggy - Giffnock is in W. Lanarkshire, for what it's worth, and I tend to think of Giffnock as part of Glasgow, a more moneyed part by and large

I went to one of the schools on the list, which was a comprehensive. All of them are, as far as I can see.
I come from a Catholic background but was not sent to a Catholic school. I don't think my education suffered as a result.

and I tend to think of Giffnock as part of Glasgow

Ok - but the people who draw the council boundaries don't agree with you.

jock mctrousers

That list is very misleading.

Every school I know of on that list is in a posh area. I suspect they all are.

Most Catholics in Scotland don't live in posh areas.

At least half of the schools are in areas where there are no denominational schools.

A proper asssessment would require a comparison between denominational and non denominational schools with a similar socio economic intake.

Such evidence as exists suggests that Catholic schools are more successful than non Catholic schools. The most likely explanation is that the religious aspect of the school tends to act as a cohesive force on the pupils, creating a better environment for learning.

Ernie. Stop talking pish. I was brought up in the Glesga tenements with the erse hingin oot of ma troosers just like ma Catholic pals. It was a disgrace that we had to go to seperate schools. It was a deliberate divisive measure by the establishment to do this. Remember working class people did not always have the right to education. When we did get it we became a threat. So we were divided. The Catholic Church survived for centuries before the 1918 Education Act. To say that it has to be retained is just protectionist for those employed in it. A qualified friend of mine was prevented from working in a Catholic special needs school because she did not embrace the Catholic ethos. A clear breach of human rights and the Catholic Church gets away with it.

Dave: I agree with all you have said on this, but you should have made more of the fact that the Tories would go even further than New Labour in allowing religious nutters of all stripes to set up schools.

I also think you're wong to say that "The claim of Hizb ut Tahrir involvement is, at best, not proven." The Head Teacher/Proprietor of the Slough school *is* a known member (or at the very least close supporter) of Hizb.

As we say over at Shiraz Socialist (refering to New Labour's response to the accusations):

"This is, of course, all a smokescreen: note what Balls does not deny: that Hizb ut-Tahir (via its front organisation the Islamic Shakhsiyah Foundation) set up both schools, and still runs one of them (the Slough school, where the head teacher/proprietor, Farah Ahmed, is either a member or very close supporter of Hizb). Meanwhile, Haringay Council have stated that the school in their borough has written to them, “stating that it no longer has any links with any of the individuals alleged to have connections with Hizb ut-Tahir” (my emphasis - CC)."

" Most Catholics in Scotland don't live in posh areas. "

Can you quote any evidence for that? If you want to look for evidence, I suggest ' Sectarianism in Scotland' 2004, Steve Bruce et al eds. It's the only serious study I know of on 'things like that'. I don't own a copy - it's quite expensive - but I've heard Bruce talk on the matter, and I think this publisher's blurb pretty much agrees with what he said, and suggests at least not making easy assumptions about the position of Catholics in Scotland:

" This book tests the rhetoric with historical and social scientific data, describing and explaining the changing pattern of relations between Catholics and Protestants over the 20th century. It concludes that Catholic integration in Scotland has been far more successful than most commentators would have us believe. While there were once deep social, political, economic and cultural divisions, these have now all but disappeared."

A proper asssessment would require a comparison between denominational and non denominational schools with a similar socio economic intake.

Two things:

1) You don't get this because Catholic schools have a wider catchment and are therefore more likely to be genuinely comprehensive. The last Catholic school I taught in was in Glasgow's poorest constituency but even there the intake was more mixed than somewhere like Drumchapel where no-one, and I mean no-one, who lives outside of the scheme sends their children there.

2) It misses the point anyway. Even if it could be shown that all other things being equal 'faith' schools get better results, the point the league tables makes is that any difference is almost completely insignificant compared to the effect class has on educational outcomes.

Faith schools have only become a problem now the ‘troublesome’ Muslims have got on board.
I can’t remember this issue being discussed before by leftists in the past.
If anyone has the evidence then fair enough.

But here are some facts from the following link, http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2001/nov/14/schools.uk2:

How many faith state schools are there in England?

Primary schools - 6,384
Secondary schools - 589

Of these, 4,716 are Church of England, 2,108 Roman Catholic, 32 Jewish, four Muslim, two Sikh, one Greek Orthodox and one Seventh Day Adventist. Until Labour was elected in 1997, all state faith schools were Christian or Jewish.

Now I can’t remember a campiagn against Jewish schools but if anyone can point me the the evidence, please do so.

So it seems to me that this issue of faith schools is tied to the war on terror and the general fear opf Muslims being propegated by the neo liberal apologists.

I tend to agree with Shuggy that performance tends to be based on class. The idlers send their kids to the best schools with the best resources and those that do the work and create the value in society are left to fight over the scraps. The fight against education in this system has to be all encompassing, instead of a narrow focus on faith schools.

I recall having a discussion about faith schools in a meeting of the Revolutionary Communist Party quite some time ago -- late 1980s I think -- when Muslim schools were first being mooted. The general drift of the party line was that if Christians have schools, then so can Muslims, and it would be wrong to oppose them.

I said that socialists should be opposed to all religious schools, and that we should not support the opening of any more, whatever the creed. I was the only one to push for that.

I can't remember if I said that we should call for the abolition of all religious schools and that their resources should be integrated into a secular education system, but that is what I call for today: and I think that this must be the policy for the left. I am amazed that any socialist would support any other standpoint.

The recent hoo-ha over admissions to a Jewish school in London, where a child of a convert mother was barred from entry -- the argument over entry was around whether being Jewish is determined by one's religion or by ethnicity -- once again brought home to me the need for a secular education system.

39. Knox Academy, Haddington, is the school I went to - non-denomenational, and although I thought it was horrible at the time, it looks pretty good in retrospect.

That said, 90% of the pupils there have come from the two primary schools in the town, one Catholic and one non-denomenational, situated right next to each other. That meant that my first year at high school was spent dodging gangs of kids bashing hell out of each other on sectarian/tribal grounds, which was a bit of an eye-opener if you'd come from a primary school in which P7 contained eleven pupils, as I did.

Probably not a terribly useful insight, but I throw it in for colour.

"WHAT’S to stop a bunch of North London Trot parents scraping two million quid together and sponsoring a secondary school"

A bit behind the times I am afraid. The need for sponsors to give any money at all has been quietly shelved as the whole academies project has become less and less viable. The organisations that do want to 'sponsor' now get control for free.

There have been various references to Northern Ireland in this thread discussing the negative influence of segregation in schools but no one has brought up the perhaps bigger question, i.e. the Housing question. It is plainly obvious that housing and school demographics are closely correlated. So if we are going to force people into secular education to defeat division in our society, then what about enforced housing integration?

I think this was Camerons 'swamped' moment. Thatcher in 79 saying britain was about to be swamped by immigration, lead to a surge in Tory support, won the white racist vote the NF had been building up and banking on.

Cameron was after the anti Islamic vote the BNP like the NF have been mobilising around.

Pretty disgusting- but what do you expect-
nothing to do with Hizb ut-Tahrir and never was.

JimD. Who would be the housing enforcing officers!
That policy would be followed by a TV programme called kill thy neighbour. You do have a sense of humour JimD. Obviously you are not a socialist!

SteveH. You say that faith schools have only become a problem because of muslims. I would say you are wrong. Given a referendum in Scotland I am sure the overwhelming majority would vote against them. As for England I think it would be close. NI would vote for it to be retained. I think you miss the point about why people are skeptical about muslims. The fact that it has been clearly proven that hatred was being preached in mosques reflect on peoples fears and opinion. Hatred being preached in what is supposed to be a house of god and peace is hardly going to have many friends.

More veils NOW!!! End female literacy NOW !!! Death to Charles Darwin!!! (That's right isn't it Dean?)

Sue R. Who is Dean?

First post "Posted by Dean | 15:03, 27 November 2009"

There have been some interesting contributions from the educationalists, but isn't all this rather strange, debates over educational policy that should have been decided decades ago?

Ultimately, I think a secular environment helps all religious believers, as it means they can't be dominated by one particular larger group (eg. the Catholic Church)and it leaves them to their own devices, which is probably what is best for all.

Of course, you've got basically then two alternatives to that, either 1) religious believers exerting pressure in civil society, and nonbelievers pushing back (fundamentalist Christians in America, etc is one example) or 2) where there already is religious domination, normally by one group, how that slows down social progress and reforms(Ireland is another example)

So those socialists and others who are tempted, for whatever political reasons, to aid the reassertion of religious belief in civil society need to think about those historical lessons, and why a pragmatic form of secularism would be far better than a society riven with religious division and conflict.

"So those socialists and others who are tempted, for whatever political reasons, to aid the reassertion of religious belief in civil society need to think about those historical lessons, and why a pragmatic form of secularism would be far better than a society riven with religious division and conflict. "

Too true. But let's be frank, if a few previously impotent little Trot sects can ride to power on larger sectarian movements they'll be only too glad to see a 'society reiven with religous division and conflict.' They've been on a busted flush since the Berlin wall hit the deck, and communal politics now offer them the only path available to the power and status they crave.
Luckily, for the rest of us they won't succeed, but you can expect to hear a lot more of the 'rationalism is racism' line from the usual suspects.

SuR,

You are back from the restaurant at last!

And you still haven't provided the quote I requested.

And now you have bizarrely claimed that I am in favour of stopping girls going to school.
And that idiot Modernity has referenced my post as if it is proof.

But please SueR expand on what you mean, dissect my 2 previous contributions to back up your argument. (That's if you are not going to the Cinema or anything).

What a dishonest pair you and Modernity are.

(By the way Jimmy Glegsa if you were wondering who SueR is, she's the one who said in the Famine in Africa thread that she would like to see a population decrease and that Africans shouldn't have laptops)

SueR,

Just a further point,

Why do you automatically equate Muslims with not allowing girls an education?
I work with a Muslim girl at work and she got a degree in Economics in Pakistan. Where do these utterly racist assumptions come from?

Do these faith schools ban girls?

Do you work in a Muslim country, Dean, or in Britain? I take it you don't work in Saudia Arabia. Can you define what you mean by 'Muslim'. Are we talking Koranic injunction here or folk religion? Were the Taleban being unIslamic when they killed schoolgirls and teachers? Why isn't your Muslim collegue working in Pakistan? Oh, too violent, no jobs, too crappy maybe?

"Why isn't your Muslim collegue working in Pakistan? Oh, too violent, no jobs, too crappy maybe?"

No she came over before the war on terror turned Pakistan into suicide bomb central and I will refrain from asking her what the hell she is doing here if you don't mind. I will leave those questions for the BNP.

Now do UK faith schools ban girls yes or no.

Secondly please dissect my previous comments line by line to show where I favour girls being banned from education. Show where I even support the idea of faith schools.

And this time the restaurant excuse will not wash.

"WHAT’S to stop a bunch of North London Trot parents scraping two million quid together and sponsoring a secondary school with, as the jargon has it, a distinctive ethos? I have asked this question, semi-seriously, of people with a better understanding of New Labour educational policy than I can personally claim. As far as they can tell, such a project would technically be within the rules."

as far as i know, in Denmark, you have a few state-recognized socialist schools

'This development of faith schools does present an opportunity for an educational system to develop as an alternative to the pathetically
indadequate state provision.

A developed network of co-operative producers (if we can imagine such a thing) could create it's own schooling system better tailored to it's needs rather than the needs of the capitalist system, and yes, some left field ideas could be taught.

So, instead of looking at faith schools purely from the arrogance of secularism, we should also see the opportunities it presents.

This development of faith schools does present an opportunity for an educational system to develop as an alternative to the pathetically inadequate state provision'.

Yeah, right. you're not a Marxist are you? Not one of the new breed of Leninists that Dave was chundering on about a few posts ago. Are you a Green, or an SWP'er? What 'left-field ideas' did you have in mind? What a moralist you are. No sort of scientist obviously. Science begins with asking questions, wondering. I come from immigrant stock, maybe you do to, and the fact is people emigrate because they can't make a living in their homeland. So don't give me any bullshit about 'I wouldn't invade her privacy to question her motives'. you don't need to, you just need to know that Pakistan is a stagnant society, and it is only by getting out of it (unless you are a feudal landowner like the Bhuttos and the Zardari) you get fucking nowhere. Unless you can pay the bribes of course.

I'm currently reading 'Slumdog Millionaire'. I thought when I began reading it that it would be a happy, feelgood sort of a fairy tale. It has actually turned out to be all about the communalism and violence that mars Indian society. Why is that? Why did Pakistan launch a terror attack on Mumbai last year? Why are they telling their population that it is India, America and Britain behind the Taliban and the suicide bombers? Because, politically, these countries have no-where to go. And why is that?

I'm just more interested in the here and now than teh hereafter. No, British Islamic schools don't refuse to teach girls. I don't know if they segregate them even. They wouldn't be recognised as legitimate educational establishments if they did, although there are single sex establishments. They have to conform to the National Curriculum, but that doesn't mean they don't add things. A British convert to Islam who was teaching in a school funded by Saudia Arabia in West London, told an Industrial Tribunal that he was required to teach that Jews are descended from apes and pigs. The school was forced to remove those pages from it's text books (or at least publically). The name of the school in Haringey is a catchphrase from an Islamacist text, rather like a Trot school being called 'Bolshevik High'.

What opportunitities are presented by faith schools, by the way? What opportunities over and above those that should exist in a decent state school? If state education is crappy (and I agree, it is awful) then it is a case of fighting to force the government to change it, not allow the allah-bothers and god-whiners to set up their own schools. It is a question of what kind of society we are striving to create.

SueR,

What a lot of unnecessary bile to accept you were lying when you said I was in favour of banning girls from school or even that my comments could be interpreted that way.
You can't even say I am in favour of faith schools because as I pointed out in my second comment,

"The word purely means that yes we criticise the concept of faith schools but do it in a way which doesn't imply support for the capitalist state education, and in a way that allows us to imagine how socialists conceive of society developing."

So cut the crap, show some humility and apologise.

"What 'left-field ideas' did you have in mind? What a moralist you are. No sort of scientist obviously"

What are you ranting on about here. Where does moralism come into it. If you can imagine an education system that isn't controlled by the bourgeois (but it is interesting that you equate it's education with science etc, how typical of the professional pro imperialist.) then you could imagine that subjects like history or economics could be taught more objectively, i.e. without it's bourgeois unscientific ideology thrown in.
You could also imagine a non bourgeois education system challenging the very nature of education and how it is taught, for example by looking at the examination system. It was Betrand Russell after all who said that exams should be abolished.

"What opportunitities are presented by faith schools, by the way........force the government to change it, not allow the allah-bothers and god-whiners to set up their own schools."

You are either too stupid to understand my argument or deliberately misleading the debate. I am claiming that these alternative ideas by the bourgoeis state to address their failing system allow us space to provide our own critique and provide solutions that do not seem like typical contrarian leftism. If the state itself accepts these failures it provides a better environment to put a socialist perspective forward. Though judging by many of the comments here, even socialists can't see past the Bourgoeis education system.

In all fairness, it is rather futile to attempt to discuss these issues with the fake anti-imperialists, such as Dean.

Many of them have spent years in or around the SWP/Respect and in the process become inculcated in the quest for communalism and the politics of relativism.

They themselves may be atheists and yet paradoxically often argue for a greater role for religious education.

The contradictions in their positions are so colossal to anyone looking in from the outside, but to the fake anti-imperialist, like Dean, these contradictions rarely resolve themselves, in their minds, because they don’t think about them.

They’ve simply been told “religious schools – good” “secularism – bad” and so that is what they trot out one way or the other.

The actual issues surrounding education don’t concern them, they’re not terribly interested in what real people do in real complex and messy lives, for the fake anti-imperialist a few slogans will do, whereas the rest of us are wrestling with the push and pull of these issues.

The fake anti-imperialists are not interested in people as people more as abstracts. The fake anti-imperialists are shouty in their politics rather than persuasive, they make unnecessary conflicts, create division and will often put forward a stream of non-sequiturs as arguments.

Clearly, the fake anti-imperialist themselves could probably do with some education but are loath to admit it.

All in all, it’s probably worth ignoring these fake anti-imperialists, whether the topic is their support of the Taliban (like attacking schools, burning books, etc) or more mundane matters in Britain.

The fake anti-imperialists have a destructive nature, ruining otherwise informative or comradely discussions on complex topics, Dave’s threads are littered with their rantings, which should be a lesson to us all. They are best ignored.

It's frightening to think that Dean may actually be over the age of majority. Unfortunately he exemplifies the moral and intellectual level of the decaying rump of the SWP/Respect: the opportunistic descent into cultural relativism and communal poltics; the impoverished and vulgar variant Marxism; the self refuting arguments, faulty syllogisms and non-sequiturs presented as facts.

But who needs rationality when you've got the 'central committee' to do your thinking for you, and material reality has reconstructed as an epiphenomena of 'leninist' analysis?

Modernity,

you professional pro imperialist nutjob. You dishonest pile of shit.
I have said I think we should criticise Faith schools. Can you get that into your moronic brain or what!

You and that idiot SueR are the ones who have ruined this debate by LYING about my position and here YOU repeat the LIES again even though anyone can look at my comments and see you were LYING.

"whereas the rest of us are wrestling with the push and pull of these issues."

Fuck off you arrogant tosser. I am taking reality as it is (faith schools and all) and commenting how socialists should deal with the situation, how instead of seeing obstacles look at possibilities also. If you want to disagree with that outlook, fair enough but to put forward total lies, to try and say I was saying religious schools = good shows what a dishonest scumbag you are. It shows that it is you who creates division and unnecessary conflicts.

Now you talk of a society riven with religious divisions like some wannabe Enoch Powell and then talk about "reassertion of religious belief in civil society" like that will resonate with the real people in their real complex lives. Your position is one of right wing hysteria, not wrestling with the issues.

"Winston"

You must be Modernity in disguise because a) You have ignored the fact that I do not support faith schools and b) You have instead of looking at what I have said taken Modernity's lies as truth.

So instead of thinking for yourself you have called upon the 'authority' of Modernity.

But I will give you a chance, tell me exactly how you can back up the following claim from what I have said,

"Unfortunately he exemplifies the moral and intellectual level of the decaying rump of the SWP/Respect: the opportunistic descent into cultural relativism and communal poltics; the impoverished and vulgar variant Marxism; the self refuting arguments, faulty syllogisms and non-sequiturs presented as facts."

Modernity,

This is pretty black and white mate, you have lied, a quick investigation confirms this. And you have lied with the sole purpose of closing down debate with those that you don’t entirely agree with or those who fall outside the parameters acceptable to you.

You are a very destructive force.

Dean was perfectly justified in defending himself from Sue’s bare faced lie, no one could have simply accepted her falsehoods.

To top it all some guy called Winston Smith proclaiming in true vulgar Marxist fashion to be the defender of rationalism, as if it wasn’t a social product, support your lies and ignores the actual truth. You really couldn’t make this up!

It gets even funnier!

"the defender of rationalism, as if it wasn’t a social product"

Marko, what a scintillating insight: I suppose the Chinese and Greeks came up with wildly different numbers for Pi, while Brahmagupta and Indian mathematicians added two and two to get fifteen! I guess the laws of physics also change as you cross societal boundaries, and I assume gravity didn't exist and until Newton discovered it.

I rest my case.

Girls! Girls! A bit of decorum please!

"and material reality has reconstructed as an epiphenomena of 'leninist' analysis? "

Pretentious enough to do Seymourlin proud, but it should be 'epiphenomenon' (singular).

Dean: I actually laughed out loud when I read your petulant nonsense. Yes, you do support faith schools. You witter on about 'alternatives' and all sorts of hippy shit like that. Next you'll be telling us that teachers should teach Creationism. My answer to that is simple, 'Fine, but teach reincarnation and the Hindu caste system as well.'. Why single out the Abrahamic religons out when there are millions of people in India who are not part of that particular club. Still waiting to hear what are teh good 'left field' ideas that you think might be incorporated into education.

This is amazing reading what socialists are saying. Some defending the fantasy of religion. What pit have socialists decended into. No wonder the British ruling classes treat you with the contempt you are due. Socialists are just little fairy lights hanging from a Xmas tree waiting to burn out.

Winston Smith:

"!It gets even funnier!

"the defender of rationalism, as if it wasn’t a social product"!

If 'rationalism' (not quite sure what that is) is not a 'social product', then I'm not sure what it is at all. I'm fairly sure 'rationalism' is not God-given, and I'm sure it didn't create itself.

I just do not see why Dean is being so badly misunderstood.

Until I look at who is doing the misunderstanding.

So I checked my e-mail and found:

http://etools.781net.com/a/vomso/bg_vomso_wdbm_388.html

Some posters here think Faith is - at best - silly magical thinking, as I do 99% of the time, what with being an Enlightenment Fundamentalist*, but it's sobering to realise that some governments - like the Cuban, Vietnamese and Chinese - are still jolly keen on actively persecuting religious groups disliked by those in power.

* Johannes Hari used this term to describe Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Good, innit? Wear it with pride!

Sue is obviously impossible to reason with so this is for the sane ones out there, I DO NOT support faith schools but I support an alternative to bourgeois education. Now faith schools are a bourgeois attempt to improve a failing system, a bit like introducing the death penalty to deal with crime and I believe that these desperate attempts to prop up their failing system give us space to put forward a socialist perspective.

Though from reading some of the comments above that just seems to mean what we have now without faith schools.

Just scanned this debate and noticed someone called H accuse the AWL of running scared of demanding the abolition of faith schools. I have not noticed anyone respond to this bullshit (possibly due to the aforementioned scanning). But just in case any one is tempted to believe it ...

For fuck's sake! Where the fuck do you get the idea that the AWL is in any sense soft on faith schools?! Or was this some kind of wind-up?

Winston,

How long is a piece of string mate?

And were we discussing the Newtonian laws of physics or were we discussing faith schools?
Surely a 'rationalist' of your calibre can work out the difference.

And more to the point, you actually ended up supporting the lies of Modernity and ignoring the truth. (A rather strange position for a 'rationalist' to take)

Try reading Marx and in particular his polemics against the 'rationalists' of his day and then come come back with your vulgar Marxism, just this time try and say a little more than just vulgar Marxism, explain why it is vulgar Marxism.

'Rationalists' like Newton did a little bit more than constructing incoherent sentences masked by big words, like epiphenomena.