shaki was my best friend in primary school and for you to say that he thought was "well hard" is a fucking insult. i hope you rot in hell you wank stain. he was caught up in what he couldnt handle, a harmless human
fuck you

Ross, this is meant as sympathetic coverage. It's tragic what happened to your mate. I'm just trying to look for answers beyond simply bringing in tougher law and order measures. Instead of swearing at me, put forward some constructive suggestions.

the frightening thought occurs to me that it is becoming cool to kill, in much the way it is cool to top yourself in Bridgend

The frightening thought occurs to me that you haven't seen any of the sensible press coverage of the Bridgend 'cluster'. Or else you have and you're deliberately printing the myth.

Dave, I think you got the tone of this article wrong, although I appreciate your points. Is it considered 'cool' to kill yourself in Bridgend? Did this poor little boy who died calling for his Mummy think himself 'well-hard'? Young Ben Kinsella, did he want to die? Where I live, in Southgate, a 26 year old was stabbed in the liver about two years ago, the police have still not found his killers. There's lots that can be said about it all, but we mustn't forget that globalization must be a contributing cause. Too many people set adrift with no sense of place or rootedness. Drugs, pimping (with the older boys), robbery...it goes on. Giving the state more powers isn't the answer, neither is a 'moral rearmament', nowadays no-one would agree on what morals to promote. Whatever happens, it's looking bad for Labour.

Just thought I'd link to this excellent article on the same topic(part of a long series of similar ones on that site):

http://www.septicisle.info/2008/07/scum-watch-yet-more-on-knife-crime.html

I think it adds something... Knife crime isn't becoming more of a problem by volume, but knife criminals are getting younger. Perhaps we may hope that it's a fad rather than a self-reinforcing condition.

Once again Dave you go for appearance over essence. Ethnicity has nothing to do with the issue; nor does anything about household structure. Your slow move to the right continues in the grim search for an ever reducing number of readers for your blog which based on entry work into a rotting corpse.

I also understand (based on a close reading of the Evening Standard) that joining a gang is compulsory on some estates. You must join otherwise you become a victim. There must be no loose ends. Can atis mia say what is at the root of the matter as it is always instructive to discuss other points of view.

"The left must continue to make its longstanding case for a determined assault on inequality, job insecurity, low pay, bad housing and discrimination on the grounds of ethnicity, and against further erosion of civil liberties."

Nobody would disagree with that but guess what comrades? It aint going to happen anytime soon.
In the meantime what are we to do? As its been rightly pointed out violent crime affects working class communities more than anybody else, this is our natural constituency and as Dave recently pointed out that on this issue the left is out of touch with our potential supporters, yet again we get the usual middle class liberal platitudes.
Does anyone give a toss about the rights and civil liberties of the victim? What about our right to walk the streets without some drugged up drunken scally son of a junkie mother mugging and stabbing us?
There is also a lot of media hype which is unhelpful, violent crime overall seems to have gone down, so the statistics lead us to believe. At the same time there are more people in prison than ever before, its really is that simple, if these scumbags are banged up for a very long time they won't be committing any crime, and if they reoffend on release that's it folks, three strikes out, life without parole.

"But the frightening thought occurs to me that it is becoming cool to kill, in much the way it is cool to top yourself in Bridgend."

Regards to Bridgend, that is only your assumption and not based on anything.

dave i agree with you article very much however it is easy to understand why its tone an be seen as offensive so take that into consideration before you write on such a sensitive subject ....me personal im living a double life...im an aspiring student who jst completed his alevels however im on the road every single day ... im not in a gang coz that type of life is cool or i like the real ..to be honest with u im fed up of livin like this but theses streets are not wat you know ....selling drugs to people who need help or starving ....i dont hustle to impress where im from and what iv grown up seeing its either u hustle or be broke .... no body and i mean nobody would rather break the law if they was an opportunity to make the money required legitamtly ....lifes crazy .... but one thing u need 2 know its all about the state of mind of the communnity we where raised in ... and im not in this community because my mums a lazy black or my father is not in the scene .. iv watched my parents do two jobs each jst 2 survive .. not live a good life jst survive so my suggestion is the goverment stop spending money on getting more jails as eventually they will ge full but get to the bottom of the problem .... understand ... hope this msg finds u well

Building more jails isnt the answer, non custodial sentences or some kind of therapy may be the answer for the majority of offenders and they should be released into these schemes. And for fucks sake stop locking up innocent Muslims and others on trumped up conspiracy charges, they haven't done anything.
That way there will be enough space in prison for the most persistent violent offenders, and the regime for these thugs should be robust and diciplined on military lines, good old Maoist "re-education through labour" should make sure that the experience would make them stop re offending and lead useful lives and if they dont that is tough, lock them up for life. it works. We shouldnt give a toss what happens to them, the rights of the victims not the offenders should be paramount.
Election of judges and magistrates would be a good idea too at the moment most are upper class toffs who have absolutely no experience of reality.

Did you write like that in your A-level exams?

In the States they're a bit further down the line on this stuff.i don't know London too well, but i@d guess the black community wouldn't be too far away from the reaction of this Chicago audience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj1hCDjwG6M

On Sunday, Fathers Day, Barack Obama made a speechto a largely Black Church in Chicago , about fatherhood and responsibility. Much of the speech is aimed at fathers in general, but someof it talks about absent black fathers.


Recalling his upbringing by a single mother Obama said:

"I resolved many years ago that it was my obligation to break the cycle that if I could be anything in life, I would be a good father to my girls,"
Emphasising that children growing up without a fathers input, is a particular problem in the black community he said
"They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it,"

Its worth watching in full, particularly for the nuanced reception by the audience.

In its emphasis on missing fathers jeopordising the gains that civil rights movement had earned for black children Obama echoed a work from the sixties. Forty years ago, Daniel Moynihan was castigated for “blaming the victim” , racism and patriarchy after producing a report which said very similar things about single parenthood in the black community, its roots in history and prejudice; and its economic and social consequences.

So who can address the issues of race, fatherhood and responsibility.

Do they have to be black?
Do they have to be a father?
Can it be a politician?

Below the belt, QuestionThat. If I sat an economic exam, I'm sure I'd do quite well (I got a 2:1 which would probably been a 1st, if I hadn't drunk fanatically) but I wouldn't dream of putting in my expletive-laced polemics from blogs into an essay... or a peer-reviewed paper. Unless you want experts crawling all over your blog, hold the sneers.

I think this is all a bit strange, because I come from a sink estate (in Stoke), & while there was a higher crime rate than the average it seems tame compared to what they say goes on in London.

I think the media's relentless focus on "knife crime" is having a terrible effect, because it sends a message that carrying knives is cool & street & will piss off the Daily Mail, your parents, teachers, & twats of that variety. A vicious circle.

I also think, as with many other people, that the Majid Ahmed case was not only horribly unfair to him but also potentially horribly ruinous to society because it will discourage able pupils in deprived areas from going down the road w all presumably want them to go down. He has got a lot of sympathy from all sorts of people. You can read me confronting our mutual friend The Nameless One on the issue:

http://tinyurl.com/5fyccl

Awful typo alert: I wrote "an economic exam", when I mean to write "an academic exam". Strange...

"Once again Dave you go for appearance over essence. Ethnicity has nothing to do with the issue"

Are you serious? 75% of gun murders in London in 2007 were done by black males - and 76% of the victims were black. (met Police stats)

In the same year, 67% of robberies with a knife were carried out by black males. (Ditto)

In 2007 and 2008 over 90% of all those stabbed to death were black.... and so were those carrying out the crime (read the papers)

Now before you all say "Racist!" can I point you to the many black community websites which not not only acknowledge this but actively call out for help and support in tackling a problem with young black male culture. Even Diane Abbott made this point this week, and when she does you know there's a problem.

Please - let's all stop hiding behind the "teenager" label - there's clearly something going on in the minds of young black males that makes carrying a knife not only acceptable but desirable.

Bring back the deathpenalty for such murderous scum. What is the sense of it all? Can we call on the elders to bring back roots and culture and respect to the youth? Now we are killing eachother, it's just crazy. Education school for morals and respect should be setup , schools should teach that it is the most horrid of horrid to take another life, it will stick with them for a lifetime and surely they will pay the price. Parents take your responsibility, if you suspect your child is in a gang or envolved talk to him, get neigbourhood watches involved, protect your children from life in prison.

Obviously (I hope) my previous post was aimed at the poster going by the handle 'streets disciple', not anyone else in the thread or the OP.

@asquith: "Unless you want experts crawling all over your blog, hold the sneers."
Experts in what? In the field of education, I am of the opinion that it is partly the fault of so-called 'experts' pushing leftist ideology that educational standards have dropped so much!

Majid Ahmed: I agree it is unfortunate, but also concur with the majority of what Nameless One said. The best way to avoid this happening again in future is to change the law to ensure that spent convictions are exactly that, and cannot be accessed by any employer or admissions department.

As it stands, it is not Imperial medical school's job to set a good example to whatever section of society, but to take on the students they think will make the best doctors. It is entirely understandable (to me) that they felt someone who had shown themselves to be so easily led 3 years previously probably wasn't one of the best candidates.

Fine words, Dave, but in terms of fighting inequality and defending basic services, it just isn't!

The (much reduced) left has general ignored
basic issues, for example i have never seen an article in the blogosphere, papers, etc, on those in the private rented sector,(PRS) here people face Rachmann landlords, threatening behavour, substandard property, exhorbitant rents. I have just been landed with a bill for 300 pounds for flood damage to a neighbours property, yet it was rotting pipes that caaused the damage, but i have no rights, none whatsover, its pay up or ship out!

Then there are the welfare reforms, massive changes on a scale not seen since the war, yet form the left,silence, pensions, rising prices, where are the big campaigns?

The left with its obsession with 'the war', anti-imperialism' etc, is becoming irelevant, at a time when some sort of left is needed more than ever. Millions now feel lost and abandoned, any sense of solidarity has gone and the state is rapidly withdrawing its support for the vulnerable.

Look at Germany,the left party is now the third force, privatisation stalling, cuts amelitaed and then here,

what a shame...

Question that said

'Did you write like that in your A-level exams?'

What a wanker, clearly young people have found their way to this blog by googling the young boys name, which is good and then they get the above!

no wonder the left has difficulty comunicating with ordinary people.

As a matter of interest, could Paddy Garcia let us know who are the innocent Muslims locked up on conspiracy charges?

What is really needed is a proper Young Socialist organisation. But, how the fuck do the young people go about constructing it?

Maybe you can tell me if any of the many Muslims who have been banged up on "terrorist" charges have actually done anything? There have been no attacks since 7th July 2005 yet people have been given life sentences for doing absolutely bugger all.
Seems that having a quantity of fertiliser for use in allotments and peroxide generally used to bleach hair is a crime as well as dodgy literature which is in the public domain and easily downloadable by anyone when possessed by Muslims.
Add to that 42 day interment without trial, mainly for Muslims, but only a matter of time before its used on the left and trade unionists and others in struggle on the pretext of an almost non existent "terrorist" threat.

"What is really needed is a proper Young Socialist organisation. But, how the fuck do the young people go about constructing it?"

Maybe start by acknowledging that crime and anti social behaviour, which incidentally is often the "gateway" for more serious crime if left unchecked
is an issue in working class communities and that liberal solutions are not the answer for a lot of these problems.
Then we may start having some support in our natural constituency.
Of all groups on the left only the IWCA seem to have some sort of a grip on this issue.

"no wonder the left has difficulty comunicating with ordinary people."

Frenetic,

I don't think 'Question That' would consider himself part of the left.

Interesting that Paddy Garcia thinks we should dispens and just ask him who's guiltye with trial b and who's innocent by jury. There's nothingby chefs wrong with knives, they are used lot by chefs and guns have a useful role in whst exactly?. The slogan for the young people should be: 'Don't Mourn, Organize.'.

Sorry this bloody laptop mangled my last post. It does that if you type too quickly. What I meant was; Interesting that Paddy Garcia thinks we should dispense with trial by jury and just ask him to decide who's guilty and who's innocent. There's noting wrong with knifes, they are used by chefs a lot and I'm sure guns must have a useful role as well. Back to the original subject. Perhaps young people should adopt the old slogan, 'Don't Mourn, Organize'.

I was wary about James Owen’s stats (above) so I checked them and found he is correct (http://www.mpa.gov.uk/committees/cop/2007/070503/05.htm) although I would have thought that a more pertinent statistic is that, I guess 90%? of shooters and victims in London are males under 30.

Anyway so what’s that, maybe 20? 40? (guess) people shot dead by black males in London each year?

But how many women are murdered by their partners in London each year in ‘domestic incidents’? I would have certainly thought hundreds are.

I would also have thought a number over 100 would be the toll for people killed by drivers breaking the speed limit, driving drunk or otherwise acting dangerously.

There is a NHS statistic, ‘Excess Winter Deaths’ (or similar). This is the number of extra people who die in these months compared to the summer. Many of these deaths are caused, or exacerbated by, a lack of heat - elderly people will get illness because they can not afford to heat their house. Even in a perfect society more people will die in winter but the number of people dying such because of capitalism - the profits made on the price of fuel - is many more than those who die because of bullets.

Do you see the Evening Standard running article after article about any of these other, far more deadly, ills in society? I thought not.

Criminal behaviour is more prevalent amongst some. There are whole communities in Surrey where chronic illegal activity - tax avoidance and the like - is widely accepted and there is a whole infrastructure to support it. Such actions don’t kill people where the crime takes place, only later when the expensive cancer drugs aren’t dispensed because of lack of public funds.

I also wonder about the prevalence of knifing deaths. I recall it being a big scare story when I was teenager in the 80s - ‘You’re going to Hackney, do you know how many people get stabbed there? Mr and Ms Suburban would say to me. Has it increased by much? Coshings, razorings, stabbings, garrottings in the Stew and the like was certainly also a big talking point for the Pooterish characters in Victorian and Georgian London.

And the article is about stabbing murders for which I suspect (but don’t know) the statistics will better reflect the race profile of poor Londoners – there aren’t many stabbings in Upminster or Uxbridge. But then there aren’t that many in Harlesden or Homerton anyway.

I think Paddy must have missed every single one of his Socialist Party lectures on crime to come up with such reactionary rubbish. The death penalty and ‘three strikes you’re out’ (which meant a guy got life without parole for this third crime - stealing a size of pizza) haven’t destroyed the gang culture and associated murders in Los Angeles.

And this debate isn’t helped by crap straight from the Daily Mail “joining a gang is compulsory on some estates”- bollocks.

So what is the answer? It’s not the stuff above. Some may predict an auto Trot response from me. Maybe “it’s all just a big excuse to harass inner city youth.”

It is partially - I think I’ve demonstrated clearly above that it isn’t the targeting of the greatest causes of unnecessary death - otherwise they would send the cops into Tesco to arrest those responsible for promoting the sale of high fat goods - but I accept that the metal detecting arches at tube stations aren’t really being used to find and seize your secret stash of ‘Left Weekly’.

I saw a good example of how the far Left will avoid the question in ‘Socialist Worker’ - they made the fair point that cops don’t solve much crime and the main role of the police is to maintain current property relations but they also completely avoided the question - what should be done in the here and now? But I don’t know the answer, either.

But I do know, that while the issue needs to be addressed, it needs to be done so without losing sight of what things are the most deadly. A bespectacled tobacco company executive in his M&S finest with a marketing strategy is far more deadly than a gang member in expensive threads holding an Uzi.

(and as Frenetic re: Question That’s stupid comments).

Where did I say that I would dispense with trial by jury Sue? Maybe as you are the Islamophobe in chief on this blog you would just support mass internment of all Muslims would you?
I agree with your slogan by the way.

"The death penalty and ‘three strikes you’re out’ (which meant a guy got life without parole for this third crime - stealing a size of pizza) haven’t destroyed the gang culture and associated murders in Los Angeles."

I don't support the death penalty nowhere have I said that nor do I support three strikes out for stealing pizzas ok?
I meant three strikes out for violent crime not fucking shoplifting or nicking pizzas or whatever. Whether this approach works or not is open to debate, but lets just get real here those who are locked up are very unlikely to be out on the streets committing crime are they?
You are saying Im spouting reactionary rubbish, but its you who is out of touch with the feelings on the streets not me.

It's people like the stupidly pompous and insensitive "question that" that would no doubt make young black males feel alienated from the rest of society. Because as soon as they open their mouth's to speak they are treated by many with derision because of their inner city accents and diction. Its not "streetdisciples" fault that the government have dumbed down A levels! The education standards for the masses, in this country is lamentable.

Were not all born with your "high privileges" Its listening and understanding from all of us that will help stem these terrible losses.

(an african Mother)

On the subject of ethnicity, I think today's Guardian hits the point home rather hard, printing the photographs of all those who have been killed so far in London this year: all of them except for three are either black or Asian, but you'd have been hard pushed to name any of them. The other three are Jimmy Mizen, Robert Knox and Ben Kinsella, who all share white skin and all of whom attracted major and repeated press coverage.

Chief Islamophobe in residence, moi? Get real mate. Anyway Paddy, you are so sure that many of those people currently banged up on terrorist charges are innocent, you obviously know more than the Police and judiciary and general public put together. If we could just let you pontificate then we could save an awful lot of tax-payers money which could then be spent on the NHS and raising school standards.

"Once again Dave you go for appearance over essence. Ethnicity has nothing to do with the issue"

YOU SAID

Are you serious? 75% of gun murders in London in 2007 were done by black males - and 76% of the victims were black. (met Police stats)

BUT

there are two types of black male gun murder. Half of them are non drug gun murders. Once you control for socio-economics the ethnicity issues dissapears.

the second type are drug murders. This is not to do with ethnicity but place. Two places in fact. The first is that the caribbean islands are a transit point for the colombian drug trade and thus necessarily involves afro-carribeans. The second is that the drug trade works though poor communiites in London - where there is a heavy concentration of black people. If it were asians who lived in the carribean then it would APPEAR as an asian problem but be , in fact to do with geography. SO yes I am serious because i have studied the research and the data properly.

YOU SAID

In the same year, 67% of robberies with a knife were carried out by black males. (Ditto)

BUT the ethnicity effect dissapears if you control for place and socio-economics. Read the Home Affairs Committee Statistical Report on young black people and the criminal justice system. This is what it says.

YOU SAID

In 2007 and 2008 over 90% of all those stabbed to death were black.... and so were those carrying out the crime (read the papers)

BUT

If you got this figure from the papers then you should know that this statistic is complete and total bollocks.

YOU SAID

Now before you all say "Racist!" can I point you to the many black community websites which not not only acknowledge this but actively call out for help and support in tackling a problem with young black male culture. Even Diane Abbott made this point this week, and when she does you know there's a problem.

BUT

There are many black NGOS who buy into the appearance because, guess what, they get money from the government if they buy into the nonsense about black on black crime and 'young black male culture'. Yep, the black middle classes get money and jobs from reifying crime as a 'black' problem. Middle class black MPS get kudos from 'taking the issue seriously' Just like the white middle classes live of patronising the poorest sections of the whiet working class.

Please do your research properly in future when discussing issues of ethncicity and crime.

Can atis mia give us some practical proposals, please.

Sue R:

"Can atis mia give us some practical proposals, please."

I think he has - "Please do your research properly in future when discussing issues of ethncicity and crime."

That's a good start, unless, of course you believe that 'something must be done about X', without trying to understand what X may or may not be.

Hello Sue. Can you please tell me if any of those Muslims banged up on terrorist charges have actually committed any terrorist acts?
I think you will be hard pressed to find a single one.

"for you to say that he thought was "well hard" is a fucking insult"

I can't imagine anything worse than a young person dying in any circumstances at all. All that potential. The things that they might have done, that they won't do. How their family must feel, and will feel forever.

Dave Ostler appears to have been correct to have said that he "may have thought he was ‘well hard’, or whatever the equivalent expression is these days".

The NOTW has pictures of him posing with guns and knives.

I was a kid once. I really wanted a flick knife when I was little (we didn't have access to guns in my day), because I thought it was "well hard"

http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/0607_murder.shtml

Maybe you can tell me if any of the many Muslims who have been banged up on "terrorist" charges have actually done anything? There have been no attacks since 7th July 2005 yet people have been given life sentences for doing absolutely bugger all.
Seems that having a quantity of fertiliser for use in allotments and peroxide generally used to bleach hair is a crime as well as dodgy literature which is in the public domain and easily downloadable by anyone when possessed by Muslims.

I think the problem with your argument is that the terrorist attacks which have actually happened - with the exception of the 21/7 ones - resulted in the deaths of the terrorists.

We've been lucky in having caught the others before they killed themselves, and others.

God is Great!

PS: And quite a few of the ones who have been caught are converts, including white converts. What they were converted to was not an ethnicity, but a murderous totalitarian takfiri jihadi ideology.

In fact, there are a number of takfiri jihadis who were formerly White Supremacists. Funny that.

Of course, paddy garcia has no problem with that. That's because he comes from the part of the far left that has warm and fluffy feelings about the far right.

http://www.last.fm/music/The+Pogues/_/A+Pistol+for+Paddy+Garcia

live by the sword die by the sword........big enough to carry a blade(coward)big enough to die by it..scum in my eyes..typical black people guns/knifes

well hard,,uneducated black clowns carrying weapons,hope black on black continues get rid of the wasters...so him in paper holding blade and gun...WERE DID IT GET YOU BIG BOY???6FOOT UNDER

BANG ALL MUSLIMS UP..ALL OF THEM ARE SIMPLE STRANGE PEOPLE...THEY HATE THE WEST YET!!WORK AT MCDONALDS,DRINK COCA COLA,LIVE IN ENGLAND,WEAR WESTERN CLOTHES,DRINK,GAMBLE..MUSLIMS???DOING THAT???ONLY WHEN IT SUITS THEM.NO ONE LIKES THEM,THERE ON THE SCROUNGE,DO ANY WORK?ID LIKE TO KNOW WHAT PERCENT OF ASIAN WOMEN ARE IN REAL EMPLOYMENT??AS FOR SUICIDE BOMBERS,TOP YOUR SELF 1000 VIRGINS AWAIT YOU/HA,HA MUPPETS..LONG LIVE ISREAL AND AMERICA

Dave - well done for starting this thread - and shame you've now got the racist/fascist muppets posting, because up to now although people are disagreeing with each other strongly some of the issues are starting to be properly aired and addressed.

I live about 10 minutes walk from where Ben Kinsella was murdered. I went past the demo for him on a bus and was shocked to see that this was a 99% white demo - and I thought about the potential for the BNP scum to capitalise on this. At one level london over the last 20 years seems to have become more multicultural, more live and let live, more anti-racist, yet moments like this show how much some communities are still living in different worlds even in the most multicultural cities.

I've no doubt that the perpetrators value their own lives as little as they value those whom they stab. Most of these stabbings take place in public/semi-public places where there are bound to be quite a few witnesses, so the perpetrators know they will be caught, and you would thing that they know that it has completely fucked their own lives too.

The is no single cause but many issues combining to bring about deep alienation among those who would stab someone. Building hope and confidence among the most desperate and marginalised communities is obviously needed but in the short run it is hard to see how that will come about. I'm convinced that the alienation is strengthened by the tunnel vision culture that dominates the sphere I work in - education - a culture of targets, tests and streaming, and I believe that a more progressive educational culture, properly resourced can give some hope and aspiration and start to offset many of the other disadvantages that are felt among the oppressed and marginalised.

Dave should delete those racist comments asap, don't give these scum a platform.
Found this while researching on this issue:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/jun/25/youthjustice

Interesting idea, will it work here? Maybe, but very much doubt there's the political will or the funding for such schemes. Its expensive and labour intensive, qualified staff have to be paid etc.

I am 57 but I was brought up in Glasgow and everthing that is happeneing in London now has been happening in Glasgow since I was a kid Now it is hapening in London it has become big news.In Glasgow there used to be an arms amnesties and (when i was young ) big name celebrities would be brought in to add there names to it. It never addressed the fundinmental issues and was meaningless. This is a cultural and social problem and until the cultural and social issues are addressed then there will be no solution.

Keeping politics out of this.
I never trust anyone who doesn't both see and proclaim 'political correctness' to be what it is, LABOUR INDOCTRINATION.
Indoctrinated to see Labour indoctrination as something else!.
Never being identified and confronted it is LEFT to carry on doing it's evil.
It's the sign of a restricted mentality for starters, most certainly NOT a free thinker.

Hence we get the 'masculine identity' comment, never really expanded upon, cause the author isn't fully conversant with the workings of the idea behind it.
Or would have explained it more fully.
Even though it lies RIGHT at the heart of the matter, it is briefly skated upon and disposed of, cause it is seen as 'right wing' and that doesn't quite fit in the Dave brain.
The binary left right,(gets exited when those two words are seen) up down, 0 and 1 that Dave brain can just about comprehend.

The problem and answer are quite simple.
Though I shall not be expanding upon this in an attempt to correct the matter as I'm starting to enjoy hearing about young kids getting stabbed to death every other day. (It may even hasten the demise of the evil among us, the Liebour party).

Young teenage kids who being 60 odd years away from a natural death think they are going to live forever. It never enters their mind till they are 1/2 a second and two feet of thin air away from a knife that's going to stab them to death.

Kids were better behaved in the 19th and early 20th century when the lightlyhood of them dying an early death through disease, infirmity and starvation made them more reliant upon their elders.
Nowerdays after they have gotten to a certain, self sufficiant age they think they can do what ever they want both in and to the community.

These Teenage deaths however 'unjustified' in many peoples minds in many of the cases does have it's upside and benefits.
Being more mindfull of their own mortality, some may even behave themselves.
Though having such a useless government backed up by its ever deminishing grass root evil moron voters doesn't help the matter.
If only they wised up a bit quicker we could be on the way to clearing it all up.
LABOUR voters are the blame for every one of these deaths, they are responsible for everything their masters have and have not done, the BLOOD is on their hands!!!

It may just be newspaper talk, but according to the Sunday Mirror, the Islington Underworld is none too pleased with the murder of Ben Kinsella. A lot of these toerags don't always realise whose toes they may be stepping on. Interestingly, one of the reasons advanced for the lack of any prosecution of the murderers of Stephen Lawrence was that one of the killers was linked to the South London Underworld. Are we really slidingito dysutopia, a society riven with warlords, like Somalia? Wouldn't work in a modern, industrial context, but that doesn't mean some people wouldn't try.

Sean - you probably need a lie-down after that one, no?

Sue - yeah, I saw that story, too. The irony is that, if true, that's probably the only thing that will put a stop to the problem in short order. Not that it is desirable, but that's the reality.

I've posted a follow-up to my comments on this thread at DK's.

@Darren: Well done for spotting that I am not "part of the left". I think if it wasn't clear before, the above-linked post makes it thoroughly obvious.

It’s an interesting point whether the views of racists should be deleted. I generally think not as they can ask questions that should not be avoided but if I do address their points, it's usually to engage like minded lurkers, rather than the morons who write the stuff.

Especially people like Sean, the bullshitter who comically starts off his contribution “Keeping politics out of this….what it is, LABOUR INDOCTRINATION.”

But let’s deal with some of the issues - kids were better behaved back then. That’s just rubbish as the writer from Glasgow mentions (a city famed, no doubt in an exaggerated way, for its razor gangs back then).

Look at what apprentices did in London, or the mob in the Gordon Riots (1780) the capital’s biggest ever civil disturbance. Walking round the Whitechapel slums at the time of the Ripper could have meant your path crossing with a young cosh wielding robber. And all of this when Britain would have been 99% white and ostensibly Christian.

Someone like Burnley Boy may be best left ranting on Talk Sport’ but let me waste a few lines destroying his ‘argument’ - does anyone suggest stabbing is conducted by Muslim gangs?

And maybe Burnley Boy thinks his home town now is worsened by the presence of many ‘Muslims’. If so, he should take a walk to his local library and have a look at some photos of the grinding poverty that characterised Burnley in the 30s, long before any non white faces.

Sue, do you really believe everything you read in the tabloids? Why would a professional criminal care about some lad’s murder, especially enough to pay contract money - where’s the financial incentive for him, just about the only incentive such types ever have? Or do you think the Krays were like Socials Services?

And on tabloidese, using the new photo at the top of the article by Dave is a poor move by a hack. It presents an impression that may not be true, in best NOTW style.

So the dead youth posed with a knife (and a gun apparently - real or not, I don’t know). There are some photos of me at about the same age dressed up in combat fashion for a ruck over stuff at school between the group I was in and another. It was childish bravado - no one was touched. Maybe this photo is the same.

I’m guessing there isn’t substantial evidence that Shakilus Townsend was a violent criminal or otherwise the pigs on the NOTW’s payroll would have accessed his criminal record and sold it to be featured in the paper. A few mouthy boasts after his death by a supposed mate on a website do not facts prove.

I’m also wary about Atis Mia’s comments. I’d like to see the reference for his comments on Home Office research in the way that I provided the one for the Met Police stats.

I’m wary because I get the impression that a lot of drug murders relate to heroin. Heroin doesn’t come from Colombia (although some crack cocaine will) but from Afghanistan more than anywhere.

I don’t know how true it is, but Turks and Essex boy types get mentioned as the importers and distributors of heroin more than any other group. Whilst it is correct to seek to analyse stuff before commentating, the point still remains that Atis Mia makes no proposals.

I haven’t said Paddy supports a death penalty but he should think through his comments further - would he really want to see a 20 year old guy serving a 50/60 year sentence for being caught carrying a knife for the 3rd time?

And as for his “but its you who is out of touch with the feelings on the streets not me.” Sure, it’s true. I am a communist; it’s not a popular point of view.

But I hope I can take it that Paddy wouldn’t be in favour of deporting all ‘immigrants’ or the flailing alive of paedophiles that may be the ‘feelings on the street’ sometimes.

And David T is quite wrong in saying “We've been lucky in having caught the others (terrorists) before they killed themselves, and others.”

We haven’t, they have slaughtered thousands of civilians and freedom fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan; implemented internment and vicious prison sentences on those maybe aligned to the above in Britain and, in this county, have also executed Jean Charles de Menezes and tried to do the same with a bloke in the Forest Gate read. I agree that we should lock up all the (state) terrorists.

I agree with Ben Shtechler and Tyra’s comments

Leave the racist/facist posts on the site. It shows how stupid these people are.

Keep the fascists undeleted. You can't fight them if you can't see them.

We haven’t, they have slaughtered thousands of civilians and freedom fighters in Iraq and Afghanistan; implemented internment and vicious prison sentences on those maybe aligned to the above in Britain and, in this county, have also executed Jean Charles de Menezes and tried to do the same with a bloke in the Forest Gate read. I agree that we should lock up all the (state) terrorists.

And in one paragraph, Southpawpunch demonstrates why the atrophied remenants of the vicious extremes of the Left are almost universally rejected and despised.

Southpawpunch: I can think of a reason why local Islington crims may take offence at Ben Kinsella's murder. There are all sorts of informal networks among the working class that aren't talked about, and I ain't going to spell it out for you. Let your public school education do that for you. Also, speaking as a middle aged lady with roots in the London poor, I can tell you that stabbings did not happen very often in the past. OK, Glasgow was an exception, and there may be historical reasons for that ie it's a port. Heroin addiction and street prostitution (and AIDs) have been very acute up in Scotland before as well. Using a knife was always regarded as something that 'foriegners' did. It would be interesting to compare statistics from 50 years ago to today, although it said on the lunchtime news that the Home Office lumps it all in as violent crime and doesn't differentiate. There has always been violent disorder among young lads, often fuelled by alcohol, but gangs setting on one boy for some (imagined)slight is a new phenomena. I don't know if Shaki Townsend was a criminal or just posing with those weapons. It doesn't really matter, the point is that that is the social mileau that he was forced to mix in and it was, to be truthful, inescapable for him. It outrages my sense of 'fairplay' that four boys should set on one boy. Just to prove that this is not a racist point, a young white lad in Bedford was robbed and chucked into the river to drown by three youths. They have just been found guilty. I find that outrageous as well. This has actually happened quite a few times to different young men, and I find it sickening that anybody could do that to another person. I wish someone would do a proper research into the annals of crime and see whether the type of crime changes over centuries.

Following on from Sue,I'm also curious about what is going on in cities comparable to London worldwide. Is this happening in Chicago? Lagos? Paris? Or is it a particularly London problem?

I hate to admit it but I felt relief when I read about the London underworld getting involved. Maybe it will take the threat of a group bigger, more advanced and way scarier than the teenage kinsella murderers to make the blade weilding teenagers think twice. I dont wish death on anyone but you have to be realistic, they are going to need a new identity and hometown if they aren't banged up or someone will take them out.

"would he really want to see a 20 year old guy serving a 50/60 year sentence for being caught carrying a knife for the 3rd time?"

Carrying a knife isn't a violent act in itself, using it is the issue here. Whether a 20 year old should serve a life sentence all depends on the nature of the offences, if he stabs 3 innocent people to death "just to see them die" then I really don't have a problem with life meaning life.

"But I hope I can take it that Paddy wouldn’t be in favour of deporting all ‘immigrants’ or the flailing alive of paedophiles that may be the ‘feelings on the street’ sometimes."

For the record I do not.
I don't support immigration controls,, believe in open borders.

Agree with everything else you say though.

So you are in favour of flaying paedophiles alive then? Incidentally, the bloke in the Forest Gate raid was a CONVICTED armed robber.

Damnnn whats going on..all i see is a bunch of teens running around trying to make london look more like ' a west coast ghetto'.... y'all be like i cant go out without my knife coz im gonna get taken out..
- is that knife is your back up? BULLSHIT IT AINT.

Wake up y'all, I know we all scared of taking a beatin, but if you carry a knife or gun only 2 things will happen. u kill sumbody and your life is over or they kill you & your life is over.
When i was grownin up the only weapons i needed was my fists.. yeah sum times you do get taken down BUT BUT BUT....you live to survive another day.

thoughts go out 2 shakilus Townsend & his crew. rip.
p.s drop the blades and guns it isnt worth it. fists is all you need.

Sorry if it wasn't clear I meant that I agreed with everything else spp said in his post, analysis of the issues etc.
As far as nonces are concerned, I would bang up persistent offenders for life. Do you have any problem with that or are you one of these perverse legalise everything, including child porn and peadophilia, liberterians?

WE WONT BE ABLE TO STOP THIS MAYHEM WHILE KNIFES AND GUNS ARE AVAILIBLE SO FREELY ON OUR STREETS,ITS NOT JUST KIDS KILLING KIDS,KIDS ALSO KILL ADULTS R.I.P COLIN BROWN WHO WAS KILLED BY WANNABE GANGSTERS 2YEARS AGO TRYING TO KEEP THE PEACE..... AS PARENTS WE NEED TO EDUCATE OUR KIDS AGAINST GANGS AND WEAPONS,SHOW THEM A REAL LIFESTYLE..LETS ALL PULL TOGETHER TO SAVE OUR KIDS...

hell yeah

When you're a kid, you do stupid things. I'd have taken a gun to school if I could have got one. I would have posed with one too. I did get a comb which looked like a flick knife, but a friend had a real one and let me carry it.

My childhood wasn't very violent though. Fights were pretty rare at my school.

If you've got a combination of stupid kids, and a culture of fighting and gangs, it is pretty fatal.

Sue, you write complete rubbish about e.g. 'informal networks' - nudge, nudge. You really would be one of those stereotype figures saying 'The Krays, they only hurt their own and loved their dear old mum'. Do you have the Pearly Queen outfit as well?

And you really are poisonous. Did I read you were in the IMG? If so, you have travelled a hell of a distance. You allege Mohammed Abdul Kahar, the bloke shot by the cops in Forest Gate, is a convicted armed robber. That's complete rubbish. I do hope he Googles his name and then sues you for libel.

'Mum' - I think anyone will know about guns and knives, how more do you think they can be educated? And do you think guns are that common - I've seen most hard drugs being used, a few people with knives and a few people brag unconvincingly about their unseen ‘gun’ but I have only ever seen a firearm with a cop or solider - do you really think guns are such a problem?

Actually David T, I'd say the majority of Brits disagree with the war and I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the world's population - certainly those (Sikhs) in India I spoke to recently were - also support the fight for freedom in Iraq and Afghanistan and against the 'vicious extremes' who support murderous US and UK imperialism there.

I went for a walk from Hackney Wick to Clapton Pond today (including along 'Murder Mile'). I saw no guns, knives, corpses in fact nothing unusual at all, just a pleasant drunk who wished me 'Good Evening.'

"Maybe you can tell me if any of the many Muslims who have been banged up on "terrorist" charges have actually done anything? There have been no attacks since 7th July 2005 yet people have been given life sentences for doing absolutely bugger all."

I think you've just answered your own question paddy garcia!! They're inside and there have been no attacks. Good policework if you ask me.

To Ross Crawford he doesn't look like a "harmless human" to me. All the little shit bags who think its OK to be in gangs and carry knives should be banged up for good.

Speaking as a poisonous individual and a purveyor of imperialist lies, I don't believe in an anything goes sort of world. Difficult to know what to do about child rapist and killers. Is their behaviour correctable or is it too deeply entrenched? I don't know and fortunately I am not a position where I have to decide. The people I have libelled in my posting are welcome to sue me, they can spend some of the money they won off the Metropoltian Police to do it, but at the end of the day as I have no assets they are wasting their time. I followed the Slough terrorist trial pretty closely (in the newspapers) and I waited to hear an explanation for the mound of fertilizer. I didn't even hear the excuse that it was to be used to grow prize marrows for the Berkshire Show, or at least, it wasn't reported. Can Paddy Garcia tell us why he thinks a man wants so much fertilizer? Was he just 'having a laugh'? A joke. All perfectly innocent, guv.

Funny sort of socialist you are Southpawpunch. Waving the bourgois law around as a remedy. Must be a new tactic to silence uncomfortable questions. As you probably know, Harry's Place has been threatened with a libel suit for translating a speech by one of Respect's leading lights which was broadcast on Al-Jezeera and used the phrase 'baleful Jewish evil'. The speech was broadcast with this phrase and translated as such, but the Arabic was later altered to 'the Jewish Lobby'. This was after teh English translation was made. Interesting, that it has now become a tactic to defeat any criticism.

NO,GUNS ARE NOT THE MAIN ISSUE,ITS THE COMBINATION OF MANY THINGS,KIDS ARE HAVING KIDS.SINGLE PARENTS FIND IT HARD TO WATCH THERE KIDS WHILE THERE TRYING TO WORK TO KEEP A ROOF OVER THERE HEADS AND FOOD ON THE TABLE,SINGLE PARENTS NEED MORE SUPPORT TO BRING THERE CHILDREN UP WITH CULTURAL EDUCATION FROM THE GOVERMENT AND MORE AFTER SCHOOL CARE TO KEEP THE KIDS OF THE STREETS,WE NEED TO MAKE OUR STREETS SAFE AGAIN. AS PARENTS ITS DOWN TO US TO PROTECT OUR CHILDREN AND EDUCATE THEM RIGHT WAY,MANY GANGS ARE KIDS WITH NO PARENT INPUT AND MANY KIDS HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THERE PARENTS AND THAT FOLLOWS THEM ON THE STREETS WHERE THERE THE BOSS,SO THERE THINK...... I DONT ALLOW MY SON THE FREEDOM HE SHOULD HAVE BECAUSE OF THE FEAR THAT THE OUTSIDE WORLD BRINGS,AS A CHILD I WAS ALLOW TO TRAVEL ANYWHERE AND ANYWHERE SAFELY,I DONT HAVE THE ANSWER BUT IM SURE THE WAY IM DOING IS THE SAFEST FOR MY SON.I HATE KEEPING HIM IN,BUT IM SCARE TO LET HIM OUT,ITS THE GOOD KIDS THAT GO SCHOOL AND HAVE AMBITION THAT ARE GETTING KILLED NOT THE MUG THUGS.

Southpaw: Knees up Mother Brown!!! Gor Blimey, Guv, leave it out. I only wear my Pearly Queen outfit in the privacy of my own bedroom for my husband's delight.

I first heard of this child a few years ago, when he attacked and robbed another child, a son of a friend. He had begun the beating even before asking for money. When it went to the courts, it became clear that Shakilus had a long history of violence.

Of course he didn't deserve this fate. However, it should have been clear for years, both to wider society and his family, that Shakilus was a vulnerable child, and the behaviours that endangered other children were also endangering himself. I am shocked that a child has been murdered, but I am really angry that nothing was done to help both him and the others he was hurting before this point was reached.

Ross Crawford - Harmless human being. No mate, harmless human beings don't carry blades and pose with shooters - he was lowlife scum of the highest order and better him dead than some poor innocent on the end of his blade.

11 to 16 is a long time fella, people change, he died a 'souldjah' according to his friends, well bye bye souldjah and good riddance

"Incidentally, the bloke in the Forest Gate raid was a CONVICTED armed robber."

Sue, can you provide a source for this?

I remember the guy being shot by the police, having his house gutted by the investigators, being completely cleared of everything, being pilloried by the tabloid media for the amount of money the police spent on keeping him housed while they gutted the house, being accused of having kiddie porn on his computer by an anonymous police leak and being cleared of that as well, but I don't remember hearing anything at any stage about him being a CONVICTED armed robber which surprises me given the coverage.

Are you sure you haven't (a) got him confused with someone else, or (b) imagined it?

Mark, u clearly got an opinion but not a clue. And u clearly aint got a clue about living in this type of environment. I come from a council estate in Lewisham/Peckham and whilst thank god i had the family support to make better choices and not mess with knives and shooters in my youth, i was involved on some level with 'gang' culture, If you dont belong and 'rep ur endz' you might be killed for it anyway so kids dont have the presence of mind to make their own decisions, y'annestand? Playing with knives and posing for pictures to these kids is as everyday a ting as playing with a toy gun was back in the day, until these kids meet sumone on road who is really living that life and then comes the catch 22, do i back down and be known as a 'pussyhole' or shank this boy? In some sick way this real life situation presents these misguided youths with an opportunity to feel a certain power and pride that they have never felt growing up in an environment, and quite probably a family with no knd of aspirations and sense of achievement. I do not advocate this shocking situation but am just trying to offer an insight into this kind of life for those that have perhaps never experienced it( mark??!) Just because a foolish kid poses with a weapon certainly does not mean he deserves to die. But to some lucky people life really has been that simple so that it can be viewed as so black and white, get me? No end of government strategies and knife/gun amnesties will put an end to this, we do certainly need tougher punishments for posession/use of weapons but the only way anything will ever change is a complete overhaul of the contact network for these disenchanted youths. They need to deal with people they can relate to and can influence them on a day to day basis, there are thousands of young people like myself from deprived urban areas who have through hard work and perhaps a little bit of luck and oppurtunity made good of ourselves, we look like these killers, speak like these killers, have experienced the same things but never ever give up, we are the ones who the government should be utilising in an attempt to try and get through to these kids, for example i recently applied to become a trainee probation officer passed all selection processes got to the final stage and was unsucessful, i know that the sucessful candidates, as nice as they were, were simply better qualified in academic terms, although i am well educated too, young offenders under a probation order will simply not relate to these 'stuffed shirts' and so switch off and therefore more likely re-offend, rendering this type of probation officer complely useless. Far from being bitter at an unsucessful job attempt i feel truly gutted that i wasnt afforded the oppurtunity to attempt to change the lives of offenders who i could of turned out to be just like. This situation is transferable to all areas of social work in the uk, i believe. We must break this cycle, and i am afraid Gordon Brown or Boris Johnson have about as much in common with the 'road' people of the capital and other uk urban areas as Bob Marley has with Prince Phillip. Far from saying the youth are blameless, i aint naive! the system and the families are failing the kids. Im quite aware that some of these dead teens were living criminal lives and as a result have somewhat brought their terrible demise upon themselves but we cannot view all murdered teens as criminals and gangsters just so we can get on with living our comfortable existences and make it all easier to slallow. If you are a mother or father reading this and experiencing hard times with your youngers, i beg you never give up, you have a responsibility, your kids need you. Use your brains London.

Shakilus, and the other 17 rest in peace.