I haven't got a little peccadillo, I'm female.

Are you grammatically correct on this point, Annie? In Spanish, nouns do not have to agree with subject.

he is making a proper appeal to the maturity of the British public on these issues, and may well be rewarded for that

You're absolutely right. The sad pervy fascist bastard definitely deserves to win this one.

"And that Tommy Sheridan - former Scottish Socialist Party leader – is a habitué of swingers’ clubs. The latter contention is shortly to be tested in a perjury trial."

It has already been tested in court and the jury threw the muckraking lies of the Murdoch press out of court. The perjury trial is nothing but a state witchhunt against a prominent socialist fighter.

I'm not sure we should just shrug this off though. I think if I was a holocaust survivor I would find the idea of a rich man spilling his beans over an acted-out extermination camp fantasy extremely upsetting. If it's true, the man is a total shitbag. Those people degraded and gassed at Belsen - their memory now drawn upon for someone's sexual kicks.

I don't think you can or should legislate against or ban this kind of behaviour between consenting adults, but I would reserve the right to call them scumbags of the highest order who deserve everything they get. I don't think a libertarian 'live and let live' shrug, and an 'Oooh Matron' chuckle is appropriate. Am I the only one?

You've ignored the feminist angle.

We've got a powerful man of high social status, the head of an international sports body, who utilizes his considerable wealth to get women to perform sexually for his personal pleasure.

You relegate this to the private realm in a typically bourgeois way.

You might as well argue that what goes on between an employer and his employee exists in that private sphere beyond the reach of politics.

Yes Ed, it is deeply disturbing considering who the guy is. But that's human sexuality for you.

I have, for instance, had a past girlfriend who was a strong socialist/feminist and also a rape victim.

And she liked rape role play during love making. That shocked me at first, and I always felt uneasy participating. Yet ultimately, this was a fantasy, nothing more.

He is not in public office and therefore we have no right to know what he gets up to in his spare time, regardless of how sick we think it is.

Having said that, if he is convicted of a criminal offence then I say throw him to the media lions.

No Ed you're not the only one, I totally agree with you. There is a lot more here than some harmless spanking between consenting adults.
I always thought there's something inherently fascistic about S&M. Black uniforms, nazi regalia and all that. Am I the only one who find these kind of "sexual" practises rather unsound and disturbing?
As far as Dave's ex girlfriend and her rape fantasies are concerned, sounded as the poor girl needed some psychological help, not to have her fantasies indulged.

"As far as Dave's ex girlfriend and her rape fantasies are concerned, sounded as the poor girl needed some psychological help, not to have her fantasies indulged."

I know. The way Dave puts it, it's like he's treating his wimmin as if they were his equal or something. Shocking.

Sexuality is inherently fascist, in that it requires us to treat another human subject as an object. Of course, there is a sliding scale here - from the total objectification of a sleepy fumble in a marital bed to the total subjectification of violent sexual humiliation. Sadism illustrates the fact that its not even as if we can take safe haven in the forumula that objectifying one's partner as little as possible is "the answer".

As far as the freedom of the press goes, I pretty much agree with Dave Osler.

"I always thought there's something inherently fascistic about S&M. Black uniforms, nazi regalia and all that. Am I the only one who find these kind of "sexual" practises rather unsound and disturbing?"

Paddy, thats a bit of a sweeping generalisation about BDSM isn't it? Its not all about that.

Of course thats how some rad fems ended up working alongside right wing reactionaires that wanted the little women to stay pure etc etc.

I have seen straight rad fems lecture SM dykes about what they do in bed and tell them they are anti women whilst screaming abuse at them . Bit ironic!

Reality is sexuality is complex. Yep, some of its 'dodgy' as well.

I have much more time for say SM dykes than I do for puritanical types trying to tell people what they can and can't do in bed .

I'm sure your fantasise are politically correct Paddy. Mine aren't, but that doesnt mean i'm not a feminist and do my best to fight for women's rights (such as abortion rights, something you are against).

Its about consent . If we go down the road of policing each other then don't be surprised when the right take it a lot further. I mean to some gay sex is morally wrong however vanilla.

can i be the first to point out that nobody was gassed at Belsen?

"there is one thing for which Mr Mosley deserves credit, and that is the way that he has not hidden the fact that, yes, he hired the hookers"

Or else that was so irrefutably true that he decided only to deny the allegations he might have a chance of defending, leaving his reputation merely in tatters, not in shreds.

I'd have more respect for him (but still very, very little) if he'd said the Nazi stuff was true, that he isn't a Nazi but he's got some issues relating to his upbringing, that he's done nothing against the law and that it's no-one's business but his own. Whether his protestations reflect the truth or not, many people will assume the whole story is true and that he's just trying to protect his business interests.

My rule on this kind of stuff is simple. If it's an ordinary person who's being vilified for what they do in their bedroom, or if by implication a whole group of people are being attacked (eg if someone is attacked on the basis of their homosexuality), then I'm against it.

But if it's a rich Tory or fascist shitbag, it's funny and they deserve whatever's coming to them. Whether or not he's a fascist (and I suppose we ought to assume not), he's still at the top of the most ridiculous and possibly most reactionary sport there is. (Obscene amounts of fuel wasted/pollution caused, stupid amounts of money wasted on technological development with no necessary relation to the public good - money which ultimately comes from workers' pockets - drivers receiving more money than Premiership footballers and no chance that they were originally working class, all to satisfy the macho impulses of men sitting in front of the telly on a Sunday afternoon.)

Paddy

You might want to read this thoughtful post rather than denounce all BDSM as 'fascist'.

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/07/kink_101

Thanks stroppy. Interesting article, I am familiar with that point of view. As you know there are wider issues apart from what constitutes consent. There can be a very fine line between consent and coercion, especially when drugs/alcohol are present.
There is also the matter that there may well be a stronger more "persuasive" person and a man or woman
may end up "consenting" to an act which they may with well regret and think as exploitative.
For example the submissive person may be young and naive and just going along with something to "fit in", ie peer pressure.
These issues not as clear cut as you and the author of that article make out.
In my opinion there is a world of difference in kinky sex and a bit of spanking between consenting adults and a rich and powerful man (I totally agree with Tims analysis of motor racing as a a particulary vile "sport" which is well known using women as sex objects) with allegedly very dodgy political views procuring prostitutes in order to simulate a nazi orgy, including the wearing of swastikas and all the other gear.
I also take issue that acting out a rape fantasy
is part of normal sexual activity. Even though Dave says he took part for the best of intentions, isn't this extremely dodgy ground for socialists and feminists?
That woman was a rape victim who needed closure over her awful experience, and I really don't think indulging her fantasies, however well intended was necessarily the way forward.

First off I'm not getting into what Dave said, its not for me to talk for him or his ex.

re bdsm.

You did imply that its fascist, but now see it may just be spanking or at the other end coercion.

Of course some may be coerced, just as some women may be coerced into 'respectable ' sex, getting married cos its expected. Doing the Daily Mail lifestyle, being a 'good' mother. not being 'tarty' etc.There are still value judgements applied to women who are seen as 'tarty' or basically like sex !

I don't really see much peer pressure to get into bdsm. I agree though there may be peer pressure to drink or smoke or have a boyfriend (and be straight) for young people.

There are pressures to conform.

Having hung out with quite a few people, mainly lesbian and gay, who were into BDSM I can't say they were vulnerable and coreced into it. In fact often, due to its nature, there is more emphasis on consent and ensuring it does not go to far.

I have also found that people who are 'strong' in their everyday lives are quite often sub's sexually. Its not black and white.

yep this guy is unpleasant and powerful, but your generalisation that some sex is 'unsound' and that bdsm is fascist is not helpful and only helps to marginalise those who don't want to conform to some moral sexual code.

I don't think most people into bdsm are into dressing up as nazis .

I think you simplify sexuality and also condemn, as the rad fems do, those who have in your words 'unsound' fantasies.

You may have 'sound' sex, but who are you to judge what other people do in bed. The right wing religious and moralistic brigade have done that . Whats the difference between you calling it 'unsound' and others calling it sinful?
You will find yourself in the compnay of people who would like lesbian and gay people to go back in the closet.

I do not condemn peoples fantasies, I often fantasise about firing an RPG into Fresh and Wild on Church Street, doesn't mean I'm going to carry it out though.
I have never said that lesbian and gay people should get back in the closet, like you I've been supporting and attending gay rights protests and actions long before it became mainstream, in fact the political climate then was a lot more homophobic than it is now.
I do think that some but all aspects of BDSM do have nazi connotations, that was what I meant. Its a view actually shared by most of my socialist and feminist friends.

Paddy

You are condemning sexual fantaises and what some people do in bed as 'unsound'.

Ok, I have not done a full scale piece of reserach on BDSM, but from people I know and stuff I have seen/read I havent come across people who want to enact nazi scenes.

Thats not to say there arent any and im sure someone will find one.

But what im saying is bdsm in of itself is not fascist.

I'm more bothered by the attitudes in this society that makes value judgements about what is 'proper' and labels women tarts or sluts for their behaviour when it doenst conform, or of views that women should be submissive to men in their day to day lives.

Are you saying that all bdsm is fascist?

What is your view , for example, of two women in an equal relationship being into it ?

What about where the woman is dom ?

I think there can be much more 'unsound' views, if you want to use that term, linked to what is seen as mainstream vanilla sexuality where the woman plays the role deemed acceptable to society.

And yeah you may have a fantasy about shooting people in F&W, but we are talking about enacting fantasies between two or more people in the privacy of their own home and consenting. Whats the problem?

Do you not have any 'unsound' fantasies ?

Fine if not, some of us do and I don't see the problem .

If its really equal and consensual then I don't really have a problem with what people do in private.
My point is that its sometimes far from being free and equal. I do know people, both men and women, gay and straight who do feel that they were coerced into such activities, on the pretext of "come on, its just harmless fun" and have been traumatised by their experiences. One must be careful not to dismiss some peoples real experiences, the vulnerable must be protected, I'm sure we can agree with that.
I have a varied and interesting sex life, so have no need to fantasise about anything that I don't already do thanks.
I agree what you say about women shouldn't be submissive in their day to day lives. In fact I prefer women to be sexually assertive and inventive.
There is a world of difference between this and dressing up and acting out nazi concentration camp fantasies. Im sure you and others here will at least agree on this.

Paddy

Im not saying that some people arent pressurised, but I think thats the case for all different types of sex, not just bdsm. I dont think its any more coercive than any other type of sex and I think women are pressurised more to be 'respectable' more than be into bdsm. oh and women aren't always submissive in that set up!

Also someone may go along with acting out a fantasy they are not really into but their partner is . As long as they are not uncomfortable with it thats ok. Thats the give and take of relationships isnt it?

btw im not passing judgement on your sex life or anyone's elses. As long as its freely consented to its up to adults to do as they please with other consenting adults.

"so have no need to fantasise about anything that I don't already do thanks."

But why do you have an issue with people who do act out fantasies , even dodgy ones ? If its consenting and private.

Where would you draw a line about what was a 'sound' fantasy and what wasn't and how exactly do you police someone's fantasies and role plays?

And where does it end and do we want the state controlling people's sexuality?

Trouble is there are quite a few people in this world who do seem hung up on worrying what others do in bed (or wherever), in particular religious groups . There are laws in some parts of the world controlling what people do and until not that long ago there were here e.g gay sex.

Unlike you am not a specialist on the finer points of BDSM, to be honest even the thought of it makes me cringe, just can't disassociate it from nazi practises for some reason, they were well known for this kind of stuff.
Make of that what you like.

"Where would you draw a line about what was a 'sound' fantasy and what wasn't and how exactly do you police someone's fantasies and role plays?"

I don't know the answer to that.

"And where does it end and do we want the state controlling people's sexuality?"

Not really, but the vulnerable must be protected, and that includes criminalising men who use prostitutes and rent boys for their gratification, which Mr. Mosley admits in doing even though he denies the nazi stuff. That is reason enough for him to be prosecuted in my opinion.

"Unlike you am not a specialist on the finer points of BDSM"

Neither am I!

I just happen to have had lesbian and gay friends over the years who were into it and as far as I could tell they were not into dressing up as nazis or fascist in their politics , far from it.

"even the thought of it makes me cringe, just can't disassociate it from nazi practises for some reason, they were well known for this kind of stuff."

All I am pointing out is you are making sweeping generalisations about a type of sexuality . To be honest its the context of a relationship that makes something repressive. So you could have a 'nice' respectable couple , vanilla sex and all that and the man beats his wife. That bothers me a lot more than consensual sex where people play out roles that may be 'politically incorrect'.

Just because something makes you cringe doesnt follow you can then declare it 'unsound' and pass judgements that the people doing it have dodgy politics.

"just can't disassociate it from nazi practises for some reason, they were well known for this kind of stuff."

Hmmm, well Hitler was a vegetarian I believe ? Does that make veggies a bit suspect ??

I also think bdsm practices pre date nazi germany.

I don't see the link between being engaged in, for example, having a Nazi sex theme party and holding fascist views. Does everyone at a Toga party wish to have a Boudicca whipped to death?

Now that's not to say they don't hold such views - I'm dubious about the politics of people who like collecting SS daggers ('because they're historic') - but some skinheads weren't racists.

I thought an article by Helen Ward of the Permanent Revolution group 'Marxism versus Moralism' http://www.permanentrevolution.net/entry/1556 is good about prostitution.

In it, she states "Much of the current debate centres on whether prostitution can really be considered as work or whether it is best dealt with as a form of violence against women."

She thinks the former (as do I), but with exceptions of course, like enslaved women, in contradiction to those like the SSP who call for a ban on prostitution.

I wish Paddy hadn't mentioned RPGing Fresh & Wild as since then I've been fantasising about bombing every organic food outlet or place that sells those very fancy 'real' custard tarts with firm pastry for £2 each in the whole of north London, preferably on a Sunday lunchtime when they are all are ostentatiously reading the Books review bit from a Sunday broadsheet, if only to have their kids brought up being able to enjoy the taste of meat.

I really hope more personal stuff can not be mentioned (or if you must, I'd thought stroppyblog would have been the specialist for lifestyle like this) or I may have to go and read Guido Fawkes instead.

Fair enough. I'm not a vegeterian but was for over 10 years, wasn't even aware that Hitler was a vegeterian back them, just felt it was the right thing to do.
Am aware that BDSM predates the nazis:

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/relationships/story/0,,2289740,00.html

Am sure the Romans got up to similar things too.
No matter what you say, I do think it can have fascist connotations. Do you really think that its ok to dress in nazi uniforms and simulate scenes of concentration camp beatings? Should people who indulge in such activities, even though it may be consenting shouldn't be exposed and prosecuted?

Thanks for the fword link. fascinating sight. This is an interesting take on the prostitution debate:

http://www.thefword.org.uk/features/2008/03/how_to_get_an_a_1

Punchie

"wish Paddy hadn't mentioned RPGing Fresh & Wild"

Its probably one of the few things I agree with Paddy on it. I really dislike Fresh and Wild and Church Street. I have fantasies about what i would do in Fresh and Wild, but best keep them to myself :-)

"I really hope more personal stuff can not be mentioned (or if you must, I'd thought stroppyblog would have been the specialist for lifestyle like this) or I may have to go and read Guido Fawkes instead. "

Yep, Stroppyblog caters to specialist taste in the leftie blog arena;-)

Paddy

I can see this is getting into one of our circular arguments !

"No matter what you say, I do think it can have fascist connotations. Do you really think that its ok to dress in nazi uniforms and simulate scenes of concentration camp beatings? Should people who indulge in such activities, even though it may be consenting shouldn't be exposed and prosecuted?"

Look I know you know have me pegged as some sort of Trot Dominatrix who locks strange leftie men in dungeons and whips them with copies of the Weekly Worker whilst making them watch Thatcher DVds...but

I doubt all fascists are into BDSM. I suspect many are quite conservative in what they do in bed.I doubt they are 'new men' in their attitudes to women but thats nothing to do with BDSM. And what if they arent into bdsm but hit their wives, thats surely worse?

I wish you would stop implying that bdsm is mostly about dressing up as nazis !
It isnt.

As for prosecuting consenting adults , no, however much it might disgust me. As I said, where would you draw the line? Many religious right wing reactionaries would happily make gay sex illegal. Its a dangerous road.

Anyway, much as I enjoy arguing with Paddy the Puritan I better get back down to my dungeon and unchain Dave ...(joke btw:-) )

"Look I know you know have me pegged as some sort of Trot Dominatrix who locks strange leftie men in dungeons and whips them with copies of the Weekly Worker whilst making them watch Thatcher DVds...but"

There are worse things than that!
It is an interesting debate, there's no "party line" on this issue socialists have very differing views its good to discuss.

Have fun in your dungeon!

"Have fun in your dungeon!"

I always do;-)

Paddy - we live in a mostly patriarchal society, burdened by a centuries-old system of sexuality which has been centred on the privilege of men. Now, on the basis of this, you could actually argue - as I do - that all heterosexual relations are inherently fascist, in that heterosexuality has, historically, been about the subordination of women to men. And no individual couple can just shrug off this legacy.

But the question is, short of some sort of politically-inspired mass celibacy, how do we overcome this legacy? I don't think the answer is what you seem to be suggesting - moving sexual roles away from anything that looks like fascism and moving towards more wholesome ideas. That idea itself feels quite fascist.

I think the way out is to find the "good fascism" in the area of sexuality. And the pro-sex feminism movement seems the way to go.

"And that Tommy Sheridan - former Scottish Socialist Party leader – is a habitué of swingers’ clubs. The latter contention is shortly to be tested in a perjury trial."

If parallels between Sheridan and Mosely can be drawn, can I say that I was interested to read that the main NoTW witness managed not to turn up, according to the Guardian, and nothing is being done to force her.

Those SSP members who gave evidence against Sheridan claimed they had no choice in the matter. Is there something to be learnt from this?