ahhhh bless

SPP

Whatever you are, you are not a 'high stakes gambler'. As the old joke goes, far left politics are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so low.

You are a small stakes/long odds gambler, like the tens of millions of people who naively bet on the National Lottery, instead of the gees gees, black jack or poker, where sensible betting actually yields a profit.

Maybe the SWP/Left List should do what some members of the old CPGB did in the 20s and 30s.

Do military drills with broom handles in Epping Forest in anticipation of Petrograd 1917 kicking off in Penge 2008.

It's obvious where the left vote went other than Labour, and whisper, it the BNP: the Greens. Unfortunately the constant splits and machinations of the socialist left are always going to lead to such disasters.

I also found the icky teenage-lads-on-the-pull extended metaphor in SPP's post slightly cringeworthy.

It’s Dave that reminds me of the National Lottery player. Like the ones in an office who had a weekly syndicate but couldn’t see that they hadn’t ‘won’ a tenner that week, they’d just lost a little less. And so those if you in Labour - making things worse, not better.

I don’t think any of us play for high stakes (although that’s not true in some countries) but the average Red is going to do a lot more work, and is likely to suffer a lot more grief (when was the last time someone was sacked for Labour activism?) than reformists.

But who can get excited about winning £6.72 on the 13.10 at Doncaster. When / if our number does comes up I’ll be sure to send you a postcard from our luxury destination to you c/o the local Ladbrokes; with its sticky carpet and overflowing waste bins.

And, to others, it’s certainly not a Left vote that went to the BNP (or indeed often to the Greens) although it would certainly include many voters that we would to turn Left.

And yeah, I know some may expect a learned treatise with socialist analysis of why the Left List are where we; that may have appealed more to the sensitive amongst you.

But anyone who does such knows they are just making it up. So I have attempted to say that I don't know why things are so bad, or the way out, so why not gamble rather than accept what you don't want. And I can't see any other vehicle other than the Trabant of the Left List in Britain at present heading there.

At least the Left List broek the historic record of the Comites Communistes Autogetionaires, when they stood in the 18eme (Paris) in 1981: no votes. Not one. Obviously even the candidate couldn't be arsed to vote for himself.

Though on the subject of the French coming to the rescue I suggest Someone looks South of His Paw and realises that the French Left is stuck in real gob-smacking shite itself (read the ol' Weekly Worker on LO's objections to the new anti-capitalist party). As for the rest, well, it's a lot heathier in France than here. But, hey Ipswich is a better team than Southend (junior league).

I cannot resist a recent quote (or name-dropping) on France. After the 68andallthat Event a couple of weeks back I was chatting to Alain Krivine (lefty groupie Coatesy that is, my evil twin). The fact that the ISG were there (Krivine's Minder was a very well respected French bloke I was in an IMG cell with *thirty years ago*)meant the convo turned to Respect (Historic Channel - Renewal).

I remarked that Galloway was a 'fripon' (or fripouille - the pints of Sparta Ale were kicking in) Translation: loathsome rogue, toe-rag, toss-pot.

Do you know, lads and ladderettes? I think there was a glimmer of a smile from Krivine. He certainly did not dissent. Indeed far from it.

Bonjour the friendship between Galloway and the Ligue. Nota Bene, Thornett.

France was just an example (and nearby). Over the last twenty, thirty years Poland, South Korea and Argentina have all been better examples.

The point is things may change faster elsewhere and impact here - but, yes, that doesn't mean we don't thonk for ourselves. It's just I think I'm more honest than some far Lefts in saying 'I just don't know' what are next moves should be

But then Krivine only called for a vote for Chirac. Nota Bene, Andrew Coates.

comrades, comrades, 0.68% today, but tomorrow the world!

say no to capitalist pessimism, another 30 years and that figure might reach 2%, onward, forward!

Nanas of the world, divide!

If you are useful in any way shape or form to mass voters you will get mass votes. You are not and you won't. You're not even any use to 5%. 0.68% is a more accurate calibration and that's just useful by feeding mindless fooishness.

Bleating about national and international issues in local elections can only get you elected cf Lib Dems if you are also showing photo opportunities involving dog poo, leaves in drains, graffiti, and potholes - none of which you are sorting out, but that's another story.

"‘But isn’t a few reforms (or a bra strap lifted) worth all the compromise’, they may insist? Does being the left wing of imperialism make you part of the solution, or part of the problem? Labour Party members are akin to collaborators and the elected ones are a form of war criminal."

Put it on a letter to John McDonnell, you bloody idiot.

Chris Paul,

An interesting idea - "If you are useful in any way shape or form to mass voters you will get mass votes. You are not and you won't."

Sounds ok til you think about it and see it means nothing. If the Tories are "useful" to voters they will get many votes - well, obviously.

But it's rather more sophisticted than that, isn't it? Socialist policies e.g. building council houses would be 'useful' to the masses but the support for soclaist parties is very scant.

But to Miller and and all, how can any socialist justify remaining in Labour? Useless McDonnell tried to stand against Brown on a programme no different than Meacher and a lot to the right of even the inadequate left reformism of Benn from a generation ago - and got next to no support, even from CLPs! 'Lefts' in Labour now move towards Compass and their ilk, like that opportunistic Blairite Cruddas.

Meanwhile your (not my) government bombs Iraqis, refuses every minor reforms such as 'working time' from the EU and pushes forward with the surveillance state.

You won't see the join when The Tory Conservatives soon take over from the Labour Conservatives as business friendly Boris replaced corporate chum Boris with not a hiccup.

If you can't see your crimes, you're dead for all revolutionary purposes. And if you do, what is there Left of Labour?

The Greens - business friendly, Malthusian backwardness; The Socialist Party - ok, as far Lefts go but they wish to go it alone, Respect Renewal - alhough a home to a few reds, fatally compromised by the reactionary politics of some of its elected reps and prominent representatives. AWL, CPGB etc - all ok but don't claim to be the unifying group LL could be. Oh, and of course the Lib Dems and maybe a few Tories.

What else is there but Left List, inadequate vessel that it is?

Isn't the Left List for all intents and purposes "going it alone"? What other force is in there besides the SWP?

And who would the LL unify exactly? Especially given what happened the last time the SWP were the largest component of an orthodox broad left formation?

I don't know why there's such a need for soul-searching or pecking each other's tails over "what happened to the 'left vote'".
I know what happened to mine. I voted for Livingstone, not because I'd suddenly decided Labour was OK or fallen back into dreaming about "Red
Ken" as was (was he really?) and forgetting how
pissed off we were, but because it became evident the Tories were a real danger. The Evening Standard
attacks not just on Livingstone but on his union
support made clear that attacking Livingstone was just meant to be a start.
The same on the question of minorities and so on.
I was not alone. Livingstone's actual vote went up considerably as people woke up to the danger.
Apart from specific factors damning Lindsey German and the left list - the fact that it was not the
Socialist Alliance, they dumped us in pursuit of gorgeous Georgie only to be dumped by him in turn, so how were we meant to come back tails wagging to
trust them again? (it helps to get votes if you have lots of canvassers); the decline in the Stop the War Coalition under the mainly SWP leadership
which tired Lindsey German represents, and claimed
as her credential, having previously told us the
great leader was George G. again; the imposition of a list rather than real grassroots movement.
(the one candidate who did get a reasonable vote
was an SWP trades unionist whom they kept on the sidelines while they were in Respect - he was not a good enough Muslim).
But above all, as the threat from the Tories and the far Right grew, and the Left was allover the
show - the CP had its own list, but supported
Ken, Thornett's lost chose the Green Sian Berry,
then there was Respect itself - its likely many
people decided voting Left was a luxury we could no longer afford.
We do need an alternative, but the best chance
for building it was while Labour and Livingstone
seemed unassailable from the Right, and people
felt confident, as well as disgusted with Blair.
We blew it. The anti-war movement managed to
alienate both the unions and the enthusiastic young. While the SWP and others were writing off Labour and playing silly buggers in Respect the
best moement on the Left appeared around John
McDonnel's campaign (and also in the movement by the RMT). But both ran on to the buffers.
Each of the Left groups is too interested in its own little existence, and wondering what to tell the workers without having to listen to them.
We can resume the advance, but we have been pushed further back to start.

Basically agree with Charlie. The vote for Livingstone was a class vote, all the other miniscule alternatives were a diversion (albeit not much of one).
This maybe the year zero for the 1990s left, all of its regroupment projects, broad parties, new workers parties and what not have just resulted in more splits, great fragmentation and marginalisation.
Best to return to principles, not to say everyone has to agree, but where possible we need to learn to work together and then have a real discussion around what the solid basis for a firmer political organisation will be. But one will follow the other.

It's all very well criticising the forces outside the Labour Party for their weaknesses but what's the alternative? For Dave Osler, to whom I address this question, it must be about two years since he joined the Labour Party. However, I don't recall a single reference to his actual activity and experiences within the party. So how about something concrete comrade?

In my last comments I meant to compare Boris with Ken, not Boris with Boris.

Jack, You are correct to the degree that I didn't notice many non SWPers in LL. But I'm not a SWP member (or particularly close). I'm not sure whether the lack of other forces is a result of SWP unfriendliness or a wrong perception by others they wouldn't be welcome - or both.

Certainly the situation was a lot better with the Socialist Alliance. Flimsy that that body was, it was a step up to where we are now.

And yes, Charlie, the SWP did do the dirty re: the SA. But as scattered forces of ones and twos, tens and fifties, we have no choice (seeing if I can make E10 squirm again - and just playing with conventional morality norms) it doesn't matter who the SWP sleep with, our relative size means they can shag the whole town but we still have to get back into their bed until such time as their is a viable, quantatively bigger er, 'outfit' (which may well include our SWP friends, but on an equal, loving basis).

I just can't work out the support of Charlie and Permanent Revolution (and Workers Power) for Livingstone. I suppose you are right that a part of it was a class vote in that the majority of workers voted for Labour as they will at the next General Election - but so what? Argue for a Labour vote next time, no way! Would you argue for a SPD vote, instead of a Left Party vote, in Germany on that basis?

I do very much fear Bill's call to 'return to principles' is that of the worst example of a (only slight parody) of the practice of the (pre-split) Workers Power (which was the Trot group I most agreed with!).

How can you possibily think this about Bolivia 1952? What was your position on the exact date that capitalism was restored in China - so go leafleting about post office closures with a bunch of left centrist like you, of course not!

We know fuck all. Rees knows fuck all, Taaffe knows fuck all, PR, CPGB, PR, AWL etc know fuck all. I know fuck all. As my (now late) mother said -if you are so clever, why aren't you rich?

So Bill is completely and utterly wrong - we need to combine our forces urgently and learn together, to get many things wrong sure but to realise that it is just random history (http://southpawpunch.blogspot.com/2007/01/we-need-new-map-criminals-sell-out-of.html) that gets people into the SWP rather than the SP. There are good and bad comrades (and politics) across organisations.

If we don't combine, if only for defensive reasons, we may go the way of other movements like the Temperance movements (who once had daily newspapers!).

Just because the class system exists doesn't mean (for maybe very long periods) that there will necessarily be socialist organisations fighting against it (e.g. Congo, Algeria, Saudi Arabia - with apologies to any socialists active there). Combine or die.

Goeff Collier wrote:

"However, I don't recall a single reference to his actual activity and experiences within the party. So how about something concrete comrade"

that's a fine and deep retort, "so what are you doing?"

Geoff, is that the type of comment which will build unity with non-SWP people?

the SWP school of charm certainly needs to work on its lines!

Dave was stating the bleeding obvious that 0.68% is pathetic, instead of engaging with his point you proceed to attack Dave personally, asking what has he done, which isn't central to the issue and not exactly worthy

so instead why not try to address the point, is 0.68% really something positive or pathetic?

you answer!

Geoff question may have been a wee bit snarky but it didn't strike me as an personal attack as such.

It seemed like a perfectly reasonable question in the context of both the post and what's going on at the moment.

PS - This is probably the first and last time I will come forward to defend Geoff. ;-)

Anyone would would think that there's been no benefit from socialists being in the Labour Party to judge from the defensive reaction. OK, so you lost London but at least the Labour Representation Committee have the mayor of Hebden Bridge. It's obviously not completely pointless!!

@SPP: Well, it just strikes me that the Left List is almost as bad a start as I could possibly imagine for a broad left coalition. First off it's not only got the SWP in it, but it's wholly their formation/creation. The chances of other groups flooding into the coalition after the Swaps set it up, when everything is going to be a fait accompli = negligible. Second the only thing that might attract them, visible success, is prevented by a vicious cycle - can't attract other forces, do poorly, therefore still don't attract those forces. Lastly, I don't think many people on the Left regard the LL as anything serious at all. It's something they made up to save face after the Respect debacle. In fact you're the only non-member (maybe Serwotka aside?) who I've heard talk of it that way.

Still, it's a bit rich for the Labour Left to have a go at how shit the non-Labour alternatives are. We all know that even the most effective lash-up of Trot groups is going to die on its arse. Historically it's the inability of these formations to attract people like you to them that makes them unviable.

Geoff's is a fair question.

It is not an inquisition to ask what can be achieved by individual labour party membership.

How many other left's are there in Dave's ward, does he go to GC meetings? How many trade union delegates are there at GC meetings? Is Dave seeking nomination to be a candidate for a coucil seat, etc, etc.

This is just a useful level of details to understand how the labour lef operate now. Because if all the activity is outwith official LP structures, then the value of membership is very debatable.

Andy Newman makes some valid points. As someone who spent many years as a Labour Party branch secretary and faced the fact that anything you did to drag the Party to the left would be frustrated by the simple (and understandable) desire of politicians to get elected. Which is conditioned by their, correct, perception that left politics do not win elections in the UK.

The Left's reaction to this was to try to win popular support from the labour movement. Most of us moved into trade union activity as our principal focus (I am a Union Branch Chair now). Howoever I have to say that this has not given us the success we hoped, and that our members are not exactly behind the Transitional Programme. We still have a working class left, signs of some strength in corss-left initiatives like Compass, but this is not strong enough to do anything serious to get rid of Holy Willie Brown and replace him with some real left politics.

Mind you, compared with the clowns and clownettes who parade before Galloway (or is that le mot juste, shouldn't it be crawl?) and the 'Left List' we are the dog's bollocks.

'we are the dog's bollocks'.

I am reminded of the Steve Bell cartoon of John Prescott as the dog without his bollocks...Andrew Coates certainly helps put the Labour Left in a new light!

I'm on the same continuum as Jack R, just not in the same place (although I did come across some non aligneds in the LL).

The membership of the SWP, although exaggerated, is a lot larger than the rest of the Left combined (I don't consider anyone in the Labour Party to be part of the Left - and those that do consider themselves such are really very weak and far from socialist policies).

So the other Lefts that Jack refers to (which includes me!) are clearly of a lot less importance than the SWP. Yes, the SWP dominates Respect / LL (but it did the Socialist Alliance as well). That causes problems but fair play to them for keeping their organisation going (Hello, Militant).

I see it as the only game in town (Respect Renewal is unacceptable). The alternative (which I could revert to - I mean the SWP may drop or make dormant Respect/LL, or other thinsg may happen) is to be an independent socialist. Neither strategy is perfect, so if Jack or anyone else has a better plan I would be pleased to hear it.

Incidentally I think part of this post was to address why LL did so poorly. I said I’m happy to admit I don’t know why and I’ve read nothing above that does give reasons that bear scrutiny.

Well, most of my time over the last three years has been spent studying international relations and economics at Birkbeck rather than in any kind of meetings.

That has had a positive political value; for instance, being back on top of Marxist economics will most likely be important in the period ahead.

But I am intending to resume activism over the next year.

Frankly, I'm appalled at SPP's 'don't recognise Labour Party leftists as on the left' line. I doubt the socialist credentials of either the SWP/Left List or Respect Renewal, both of which either did or still do ally with elements that Tony Cliff described as clerical fascists in an attempt to put a communalist bloc vote behind a Stalinist. But let's not go there.

Diminished as the ranks of the Labour left certainly are, it still represents a layer of activists larger than that found in the SWP or anywhere else.

It enjoys backing from a layer of the trade union bureaucracy and a number of MPs. It would be stupid to write it off.

"I don't consider anyone in the Labour Party to be part of the Left"

That's a promising start to debating on a Labour Lefty's blog.

Yep, left unity in action there.

And
I doubt the socialist credentials of either the SWP/Left List or Respect Renewal

is a great way to keep the debate going.

John Rees and Lindsey German looked quite shellshocked at the count in ExCeL on Friday 2 May. They didn't stay long.

I've started looking at the Ward by Wards statistics. I'm now wondering if anyone can name any wards in London where the Left List recorded more votes than the spoiled papers?

@SPP: well, if the rest of the Left is so puny and Labour Left don't count then doesn't that condemn the Left List to be an SWP-front indefinitely? A group dominated by one majority that will vote according to party discipline attracting independents in one and twos? They might as well just trade as the SWP tbh. I don't need to be in possession of an alternative to suggest that building the Left List might be a waste of your time (which, as an independent socialist you could probably put to far better use, even on an issue-by-issue basis).

@Dave: if the Labour Left are the biggest force on the wider left, what a waste to have them all collectively banging their heads against a brick wall.

I am still at a loss why they stood as the left list

They most definitely are SWP apart from the odd voter here and there why on earth would they feel that there creditability had changed after the split from George Galloway and the Respect Party?

To me the majority were always a bunch of very deluded sectarians ! which they will remain no matter what name the choose to use

I got fed up with the cry "we put George where he is" does not wash and never will they found this new energy when the party took a new route and were caught up in the euphoria of that "They love us" they now need to take stock on the situation that they caused with there ignorance to think they stood half a chance with the electorate

What I found there biggest problem is they mostly all think they are so cleaver and so well educated that anyone who talks with different tongues and went to the local secondary modern and left school without paper qualifications somewhat were so far below them, and that they didn't know what they were voting for.

Big Mistake - even us so called bimbos know when the wool was being pulled over our eye's to me the biggest shock was when a member of the SWP said
"If they were all told to drink coffee even though they didn't like it they still would without an argument"!

I always have these visions of them all queuing up on the White Cliffs Of Dover and John Rees saying JUMP ! and they all bloody did. That thought does it for me.as to why not to vote for the SWP no matter what they ever call themselves.

and they still owe me £500