Dave, you are perfectly entitled to make cheap shots referring to the al Qaradawi thread on a totally unrelated piece, it's your blog, but since when did you introduce racial profiling for those who post comments ?
What the hell has the colour people's skin got to do with anything ?
Is there going to be an 'ethnic origin' box added to the comments form ?

Eddie

Do you think it is OK for a man to beat a woman, so long as he doesn't use a stick or a whip, and avoids her face and other sensitive parts?

Or do you think it is not OK for a man to beat a woman, under any circumstances?

It's a simple question, really.

Well these were points being raised amongst those taking part in another thread, you could raise them there.
But again, Dave; why is the issue of the colour of some one's skin being raised in relation to comments made ?
Why do you use the term 'white' in a pejorative sense in this case ?
Is it okay for white people to hold certain positions in the comments of your blog but for other positions you will hold their ethnicity against them and flag up the fact that they are white, black, brown, whatever ?

It's an OMOV ballot for members and a card vote at conference for the other 50%: the result will be that Dromey will be humiliated - as I don't think more than a few per cent of members will vote for him (nothing much to do with politics - but you cannot go mental when something goes wrong on Blair's watch and then shrug your shoulders after you've demanded you oversee everything and it has all gone wrong again - just cos your missus is now deputy leader). But the brothers will bail him out and so we'll be left with nobody except a few general secretaries back.

Eddie,

I would suggest that Dave (and he can correct me on this) is pointing out a very Western attitude: Orientalism

that's where attitudes that would have previously been unacceptable to "white male Lefties" somehow become tolerable simply because they come from a Middle Eastern cleric

its the question of universality

is it wrong to hit a woman in Leith, but somehow acceptable when that woman (or another one) is in Doha?

is it wrong to beat people with sticks in East Anglia, but permissible if they are to the east of Cyprus?

which is it? universality or particularism?

"one can only hope that any subsequent admonishment remained within the al Qaradawi stipulations governing such instances."

What, you mean old Dromey should only give his wife a single slap, and as long as he leaves it at that it's all right? Is that what Dave means? Shurely not!

I am opposed to violence against women and homophobia where ever and whenever it is practiced by whatever race or religion.
I was arrested in the Scottish Parliament and had my face acquainted with the pavement for demonstrating against the Saudi royal family on the issue of the treatment of women when they visited Scotland.
Richard Seymour has got a brilliant post on Lenin's Tomb taking apart today's Independent On Sunday front page and article that deals with all of these issues;
http://tinyurl.com/2gxy2m
For Dave to use the colour of someone's skin in a pejorative way, attacking them for something they wrote in the comments section of his blog, is totally crap.
Still, now he's set the tone white boy Osler can hardly complain if the same tactic is used against him in the future.

Eddie,

I think Dave is taking the piss, he's making a joke out of white male Lefties

which, in my view, is not a bad idea

a sense of humour is essential in politics, as well as life

still, is Islamophobia Watch going to go into overdrive now?

Just out of interest, Eddie, why do you admonish Dave for his use of the word 'white' but not his use of the word 'male'?

I'm starting to regret the quip, because it's diverting attention from the main thrust of the post.

But why so sensitive, Eddie? Sure, if I write anything on race issues, I expect the 'white boy' dig.

Same as I can't really grumble if people point out that I'm middle class or middle aged. These things are true, say what is.

Anyway - anybody know anything about this McDonald bloke? Any thoughts on whether the challenge is a good idea:

Janine; yes, that same thought had crossed my mind, why wasn't I pissed off about the 'male' epithet ?
I think I owe Richard an apology for driving some of the white male and female Islamophobes that congregate here over to the Tomb.
modernityblog; white male Dave will get a mention on IW as and when we think it's necessary. The mainstream broadsheets and lumpen tabloids take up most of our time right now.

ahh eddie,

I take it all back, you're a joker

the "be nice or we'll put you on Islamophobia watch's hitlist" type comment is not exactly the way to make friends or influence people, is it?

still, you're probably fairly busy with Rowan Williams' remarks and the response?

white male Dave will get a mention on IW as and when we think it's necessary.

Ooooooo.... scar-eee. I'm sure White Male Dave is running scared! :D

strangely enough, Dave has two entries on Islamophobia Watch http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/display/Search?searchQuery=osler&moduleId=1290238

but then again I think eddie might get an entry for his own mild criticism of Qaradawi?

Shiraz Socialist only get one real entry, although you'd think that the "Sharia law in Britain" post would be worth a small mention?

http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/sharia-law-in-britain/

strangely enough, Dave has two entries on Islamophobia Watch

but then again I think eddie might get an entry for his own mild criticism of Qaradawi?

Shiraz Socialist only get one real entry, although you'd think that the "Sharia law in Britain" post would be worth a small mention?

http://shirazsocialist.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/sharia-law-in-britain/

Given that any criticism of any figure, on any basis, who happens to be Muslim, seems to qualify one for a chance of a spot on "Islamophobia Watch", I'm amazed they have time to, like, have jobs etc. It's a full time job, yelling "Islamophobe!" at the world, after all! ;)

I was at the H&SP GC that nominated him (or endorsed his request for nomionation, rather). He seems OK, lawyer, trade unionist. Seemed a bit woolly on teh nature of the treasurer's role - ceremonial rather than practical (someone raised it), but overall seemed committed to an overhaul - can't see any harm...

Eddie, repeating my question is not the same as answering it.

I too have had a mention on Islamophobia Watch, for daring to question the TUC bureaucracy's cuddle-up with the Muslim Council of Britain. If you don't reign in this ridiculous and offensive habit of calling everyone who ever criticises a Muslim as an Islamophobe, you run the risk that mentions on IW will become a badge of honour in the same way that ASBOs have for some people.

Unlike on Dave's - and other - blogs, I don't get the chance to disagree with IW in the comments box, on account of the fact that IW doesn't have one. Still, nice for you, Eddie, that you can use a facility that you don't afford to others.

And on the McDonald geezer ... On first impressions, I can't say I'm too keen. He doesn't say anything about his politics, no word of criticism of what New Labour has done in government other than the money stuff.

And on aforementioned money stuff ... Standing as the candidate for democracy, openness etc is all very well, but Dromey (or whoever else) is hardly going to stand as the candidate for corruption and secrecy, is he?

PS. My uncle was Labour Party treasurer in the 1980s.

"one can only hope that any subsequent admonishment remained within the al Qaradawi stipulations governing such instances, which some white male leftists who should know better apparently feel marks the cleric out as a progressive."

There are two tell-tale signs that a political opinion should not be taken seriously. One is when it is based on complete ignorance of the subject. And the other is when opponents of that opinion have their arguments wilfully misrepresented. Dave's opinion of Qaradawi qualifies on both counts.

The argument that Qaradawi has played a progressive role over women's rights isn't based on his theological convulsions over verse 4:34 of the Qur'an (though we could go into that if anyone wants to). It's based on his leading role in overturning the old conservative view that Muslim women should be restricted to a domestic role and excluded from the public sphere.

The best insight into Qaradawi's role in empowering Muslim women is Barbara Stowasser's article, "Old Shaykhs, Young Women, and the Internet: The Rewriting of Women's Political Rights in Islam", which goes into this in some detail, based on discussions with Muslim women. Stowasser credits Qaradawi with having played a decisive role "as both exponent and catalyst of a new groundswell of Muslim public opinion in favour of women's Islamic political rights".

Admittedly, this article isn't easily available. But if Dave was interested in acquiring some knowledge of the subject he could easily have found the following article online: Roxanne D. Marcotte, "Egyptian Islamists and the Status of Muslim Women Question".

Marcotte writes:

"In his 1994 Collections of Fatwas (2 vols.), al-Qaradawi rejected a number of traditional interpretations on women and politics that signaled a significant development within traditionalist circles.... Al-Qaradawi advocates greater social and political roles for Muslim women who are engaged in the 'Call'. He condemns the increased shunning of women in Islamist gatherings and the views that advocate greater control and restriction on women's social and political participation. He criticizes the 'misogyny [that] abounds in the pronouncements of many Islamic "scholars" and "imams"' that he believes are responsible for the fact that entire societies 'have mistreated their female members despite the fact that Islam has honored and empowered the women in all spheres of life. The woman in Islamic Law is equal to her male counterpart'. Al-Qaradawi attempts to empower women within the Muslim community, especially in the public sphere, where women have historically been excluded."

Millions of women across the Middle East have had their lives improved because of the (historically recent) shift in attitudes towards women's role in society. And because Qaradawi has such a huge audience through his weekly Al Jazeera programme (and also because he has his roots in the al-Azhar-trained traditionalist ulema and cannot therefore be dismissed by reactionaries as the proponent of an alien western ideology) his views have had a major influence on this cultural shift.

What about Muslimwomen who are not engaged on 'the Call'? Can they still enjoy freedom of movement etc?

"Al-Qaradawi attempts to empower women within the Muslim community, especially in the public sphere, where women have historically been excluded."

Can't you read, Sue R?

Funnily enough Anon I can read, I read very well in fact. I assume you must work for some Islamic foundation that evangelizes Al Qaradawi thought. In the quote you give above, Al Qaradawi (you say) advocates greater social and political roles for Muslim women who are engaged in the 'Call'. He also condems the INCREASED shunning of women in Islamist gatherings and the views that advocate greater control and restiction on women's social and political participation etc etc. So, what is the 'Call'? and if a woman isn't engaged in it, is she also entitled to 'greater social and political participation'?

In your post a few days ago, you said that his four daughters are all doing Phds in scietific subjects, including nuclear physics. You cited this as his committment to women's education. I'd be more impressed if you said that they all had jobs working alongside men in laborotories, or do they have to work in female only enviroments with their forearms safely covered up? Where are they going to work anyway? The only Islamic nuclear state is Pakistan, or Iran. Will the nuclear physicist be working there? Always makes me laugh that these people come along and denouce the Great Satan but first oppourtunity they get they end up living there or working there. Actually, Anon, what do you think about the report last week from the United Nations that illiteracy in the Arab world is not decreasing. Rather than some featherbedded Islamic elite women studing at Harvard, wouldn't it do more to help ordinary Arab women to have basic reading and writing? But, hell, it's their culture!

Qaradawi argues for the right of Muslim women to play an active role in public life generally. He doesn't restrict this to women who have responded to the "Call" i.e. are actively involved in the Islamic movement.

Two of Qaradawi's daughters work at the University of Qatar. One is professor of Nuclear Physics and the other dean of the College of Arts and Sciences: http://tinyurl.com/ynkdoq

On the issue of general literacy among women in Arab countries, on another thread I quoted a report that Qaradawi has stated that "the education of both girls and boys is an Islamic duty" and "vigorously condemned prevailing extremist thought that seeks to deny education to women, citing the Taliban regime in Afghanistan as only the most horrific example of what the extremists aim for".

All of this falls well short of western feminism, it's true, and Marcotte's piece criticises some of its limitations, but in the real world Qaradawi's intervention on the issue of women's rights has materially improved the situation for women across the Arabic-speaking Muslim world. And that can't be a bad thing, can it?

Do Al Qaradawi's highly educated daughters walk four paces behind their husbands when in public, like so many of the women I see around the streets of North London?

Jings Mon, has Eddie gota Mus loose arund the hus - about defending Qaradawi.

As for Islamophobia Watch - well 'anon' aka Bob, seems still piping up, though who honestly he's running pretty threadbare.

Didn't know that a few of Q's words could actually improve "material welfare".

Try it myself: "hey, have enough dosh to shop at Marks & Sparks".

Full wads already. Sorted.

Me: other concerns on this item. I'm more than happy at the thought someone might get the boot stuck into Dromey (though since he upset Blair and Brown a bit it's not fully clear that this isn't a sign that he's being thrown to the wolves).

Dromey's record post-Grunwick is dire. Got a post in the T & G as a consolation prize for failing to be Gen. Sec. Invisible generally (mind you that's not unknown for leading figures in the T & G, AMICUS, now UNITE). Has second, or third, or fourth, gaff in Waldringfield in riverside countryside not far from Woodbridge, Suffolk - toff country. And there's that dodgy misses.

Interesting that contender McDonald comes from the UNITE quarter anyway - though don't even know what Trade Group he's in.

Perhaps someone could translate Andrew Coates' post into English?

On second thoughts don't bother.

I personally think the challenge is a giid thing as is Mark generally. See
http://rupahuq.wordpress.com/2008/02/07/mcdonaldisation-or-david-v-goliaith/

Apols for weird spelling. I meant "good thing" obviously

Simon - you're capable of thought?

There are many reasons why I have decided put myself forward to become Treasurer. Firstly, I believe that the post-holder needs a mandate in order to raise the party's game on governance. It is the lack of competition for the role which has turned it into an honorary (and ineffective) position. In fact, I believe the post has only been contested democratically once in the past fifteen years. This is the first thing the Labour Party Treasurer needs, a mandate from the party and I shall be contesting this election against Jack, and seeking that very mandate.

But a new Treasurer also needs to bring forward solid proposals for example, the Party has an opportunity with internal elections to provide facilities for candidates for a fee, while ensuring compliance with data protection and elections/party funding laws. We should set up an "Internal Elections" accounting unit under election law and insist that relevant candidates report through that accounting unit. The Party centrally should check all donors independently of the candidate's teams.

All these ideas and more would not only raise our standard of financial diligence, but could serve to reinvigorate our internal democracy.

I have deliberately stayed away from the left/right agenda, because that is not the mandate I seek. I seek a mandate to protect the party from little mistakes - it's a functional issue, not a political position, and all members would have to have confidence in the treasurer if the treasurer is to be effective. I have been a Labour party member for many years and I agree with some issues and disagree with others. Like most members, I am bit right wing on some things and a bit left wing on others.

Mark McDonald