Reminds me what ICE-T said about Vanilla Ice:

What street are you from? Sesame Street?

Hmmm , like to know what she understand or means by socialism given she also said that the policies of New Labour need to be pushed forward.

To quote John Reid "Tony Blair is a better Marxist than most Trots are".

I know it is hard for some of you to get your heads round but some of us think we have had a socialist government for the last ten years.

Using your definition of socialism there are very few socialists.

Being a socialist - as a bare minimum - surely entails belief in common ownership of means of production, distribution and exchange.

Any evidence either Blair or Blears support that concept, Luke?

I am sure Adolf Hitler probably claimed his (national) 'socialism' also came 'from the streets and estates of the inner city' as well...

'twould be more interesting to hear what Luke's definition of socialism is rather than what he thinks it isn't. I suspect it will involve the word "fair" a lot, which is nice, but not really distinguishable as socialism.

Another interesting question would be whether Tony Blair thinks we've had a socialist government for the last ten years.

Interesting that you use a quote from the old Clause IV to define socialism.

I prefer the definition of democratic socialism adopted by the Socialist International:

"12. Democratic socialism is an international movement for freedom, social justice and solidarity. Its goal is to achieve a peaceful world where these basic values can be enhanced and where each individual can live a meaningful life with the full development of his or her personality and talents and with the guarantee of human and civil rights in a democratic framework of society.

13. Freedom is the product of both individual and cooperative efforts - the two aspects are parts of a single process. Each person has the right to be free of political coercion and also to the greatest chance to act in pursuit of individual goals and to fulfil personal potential. But that is only possible if humanity as a whole succeeds in its long-standing struggle to master its history and to ensure that no person, class, sex, religion or race becomes the servant of another.

14. Justice and Equality. Justice means the end of all discrimination against individuals, and the equality of rights and opportunities. It demands compensation for physical, mental and social inequalities, and freedom from dependence on either the owners of the means of production or the holders of political power.

Equality is the expression of the equal value of all human beings and the precondition for the free development of the human personality. Basic economic, social and cultural equality is essential for individual diversity and social progress.

Freedom and equality are not contradictory. Equality is the condition for the development of individual personality. Equality and personal freedom are indivisible.

15. Solidarity is all-encompassing and global. It is the practical expression of common humanity and of the sense of compassion with the victims of injustice. Solidarity is rightly stressed and celebrated by all major humanist traditions. In the present era of unprecedented interdependence between individuals and nations, solidarity gains an enhanced significance since it is imperative for human survival.

16. Democratic socialists attach equal importance to these fundamental principles. They are interdependent. Each is a prerequisite of the other. As opposed to this position, Liberals and Conservatives have placed the main emphasis on individual liberty at the expense of justice and solidarity while Communists have claimed to achieve equality and solidarity, but at the expense of freedom."

Snowball, I doubt it. Hitler's "national socialism" never got much support from Germany's inner city streets or estates, the industrial working classes carried on voting SPD or KPD throughout the Weimar period. There was very little "socialism" in Nazi economic policy other than some "defence Keynesianism" that boosted private sector arms firms like Krupp. Nazism's inspiration and electoral base was petit bourgeoisie who felt threatened by economic insecurity or angry about Germany's loss of status after WW1.

I sometimes wonder what planet people like her live on...

Luke - you are right in some respects re the inner cities and Nazi support but don't forget the millions of workers unemployed in the early 1930s - at least some of whom rallied to the Nazis - as well as the large amount of fighting that took place over who controlled local beer halls in many German cities between Brown shirted SA and the KPD in the run up to the Nazi seizure of power.

Come on, Luke!

If this government is socialist then so was that of Major and even Thatcher, as that's effectively what policy has resembled for the most part. Plus that 'Socialist International' definition is a bit like New Labour's Clause 4- vague and likely to be agreed to by anyone.

As for Blair being a better Marxist that most 'Trots', then it must be without knowing it, as Blair has constantly denied any kind of influence from Marx or other Marxists, and indeed shows a shocking ignorance of most left-wing ideas.

But then John Reid did once compare Neil Kinnock to Rosa Luxemburg...

Ironically, the Christian fundamentalist party who stood against me for my council ward last year put out a leaflet saying Christians should not vote Labour because Blair was "a follower of dialectical materialism" who "admitted being influenced by the teachings of Trotsky".

You guys defining who can call themselves socialist is insufferably conceited and arrogant -similar to ultra-orthadox chassidic Jews who tell other Jews they are "not Jewish", or members of fringe Christian sects who tells other Christians they are "not Christian".

Who appointed you to tell me or indeed Hazel Blears whether we are socialists or not?

Note I'm not trying to say you are not socialists - you are, just a very, very different kind to me.

A commitment to equality however defined would be an absolute bare minimum, I'd suggest.

Is there any conceivable level on which Blairites have not increased inequality?

Socialism is not capitalism. Pretty simple really.

Talk about the narrow horizons of bourgeois thought.

I wonder, though, if this is some Blairite triangulation strategy or something on the part of Mr Akehurst where alternatives are pushed out of the picture by muscling in and occupying the ground of your opponents, redefining terms so that their oppositional elements are neutralised.

Note to self: must stop with the Laclau stuff.

Note, please, that the "Socialist International" Luke Akehurst takes his definition from is not The Socialist International of Marx, Engels et al. It's just some league of Blairites, I assume.

"Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control.[1] This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by state or community ownership of the means of production." - Wikipedia.

Do you sign up to that, Luke? In which sense?

You guys defining who can call themselves socialist is insufferably conceited and arrogant -similar to ultra-orthadox chassidic Jews who tell other Jews they are "not Jewish", or members of fringe Christian sects who tells other Christians they are "not Christian".

Who appointed you to tell me or indeed Hazel Blears whether we are socialists or not?

Another view, perhaps more level-headed and less arrogant, would be that discussions as to what is and is not "socialist" are perfectly legitimate and indeeed fundamental to the discussion of political economy. Without definition, there is no clarity: and yet to define is necessarily to exclude.

I still do find myself wondering whether it is not odd that a supposedly socialist government is led by a man who will not use the word.

It's also odd that "basic economic equality" is invoked in the name of a government which has not only increased economic inequality but is unashamed at having done so. How can we resolve this apparent contradiction? It is unlikely we can do so without delving into the meaning of the term "equality" and in doing so we shall need to engage in some definitions.

This is pretty basic stuff, by the way, and should be easily understood even by an insufferably arrogant and ambitious young man like Cllr. Akehurst.

Luke, I'm slightly curious as to why you want to use the s-word anyway. I'd say 'social democracy' was a more accurate summation of what you stand for politically, and the words Blair himself prefers.

I don't use the term as a put-down. It's a legitimate school of political thought with a long tradition, and of course, the dominant intellectual tendency in the Labour Party since its inception. Why would you want to disclaim it?

Snowball,

I think you exaggerate the level of support for the Nazis from the working class.

I would refer you to "Inside Nazi germany" by Detlev Pevkert, or from your oown political tradition: Colin Sparks in ISJ2 Autumn 1978 "Fascism and the Working Class, the German experience"

It is true that the Nazis occassionally emphasised their "anti-capitalist" politics, for exmaple during their campaigns to ban smoking in public places, but after the purge of Roehm and Strasser they turned their back on any effort to organise amongst workers.

Yes, I presume he would argue that Vladimir Zhrinovsky is a Liberal Democrat, and that Jorg Haider is an advocate of freedom. After all, that's what they term themselves...

Dave, Blair is not even a Social Democrat. He's a long way right of Crosland, and even Shirley Williams.

Ah, but he is a Social Democrat - it's just that, as a pioneering man of action in possession of an iron will and a firm unwavering vision, he has 'modernised' Social Democracy to bring into line with a 'changed world' and the new economic and political 'realities' of 'globalisation' etc etc.

Luke Akehurst quotes the 2nd International:

"Democratic socialism is an international movement for freedom, social justice and solidarity. Its goal is to achieve a peaceful world..."

Is this the same Luke Akehurst who spends his time advicing weapons manufacturers whenever he's not licking Blairs arse?

Personally I prefer the definition of socialism that involves strangling the last New Labour hack in the guts of the the last BAE CEO.

I'm the only socialist on this thread. Everyone else can fuck off. ;-)

BILL BAILEY: -THE ULTIMATE SECTARIAN

Bill Bailey belonged to every
radical party that ever came to be
Till he finally decided to start his
own party so he wouldn't disagree.
He got himself an office with a sign
outside the door, with "Marxist
League" in letters red,
And to everyone who came around
these were the words he said:

"Oh, you may be a friend of Max
Shachtman, Jim Cannon and you may
agree,
You may get along with Norman Thomas
and with Algernon Lee.
You may be an old-time Wobbly, and
think Jay Lovestone's fine,
Yes, you may be a comrade to all of
these folks, but you ain't no
Comrade of mine."

For 17 years Bill Bailey kept his
office with the sign outside the
door,
But he never, ever got a new member.
Everybody made him sore.
And then one night, there came a big
fire and through the flame and
smoke,
As the firemen rushed in to save
Bill's life, these were the words
he spoke:

"Oh, you may be a friend of Ben
Gitlow; Reverend Muste and you may
agree,
You may get along with Emma Goldman
and with the S.L.P.
You may have belonged to every radi-
cal party that ever had a line,
Yes, you may be a comrade to all of
those folks, but you ain't no
comrade of mine."
And so on this day, Bill Bailey
passed away, and his soul to Red
Heaven flew.
He was met at the gate by old Karl
Marx and Friedrich Engels, too.
They said, "Welcome, comrade," as
they opened the gate to let Bill
come inside,
As he slammed the door back in old
Karl's face, these were the words
he cried:

"Oh, you may be a friend of Karl
Kautsky, and a pal of Ferd
LaSalle,
You may get along with William
Liebknecht and the First Inter-
nationale,
Yes, you may have inspired every
radical party from the Hudson to
the Rhine,
Oh, you may be a comrade of all of
those folks, but you ain't no
comrade of mine."

From Luke Akehurst:

"To quote John Reid "Tony Blair is a better Marxist than most Trots are"."

And then in a further post a load of stuff from the Second International.

Well done Luke. In one brief sentence you have demonstrated that Reid is a fucking idiot. In your second, more lengthy, quote you have provided a yardstick by which we can judge NuLab as failing to meet even the loosest definition of social democratic.

Are you some kind of deep-entrist?

"Are you some kind of deep-entrist?"

E8's very own Lionel Jospin, perhaps?

Off-topic I know, but more on the fucking idiot Reid.

Driving home tonight there was some kind of discussion programme on R4, where somebody mentioned that 'Dr' F.I.Reid said that British troops would probably leave Afghanistan 'without a shot being fired'.

Well, deep-entrist Akenhurst (or can I call you 'Deep'?) what's the inside gen on the doctor. Is he a fucking liar, a fool, or both? It's OK, you're amongst friends, we won't blow your cover.

This is going back, but at the time of the invasion of Iraq John Reid did an interview with the New Statesman where he proclaimed that 'this is a socialist war'.
http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2006/04/peculiarities-of-pro-war-left.html
I wonder whether the old Stalinist and young power-worshipper cde Akehurst would hold to that formulation today?

Luke,

What kind of socialist government presides over a growth in inequality between rich and poor? And aids creationists in running state funded schools. I could go on....

Get real son.

"but of my experience, from the streets and estates of the inner city."

Now c'mon comrades, Hazel "street fighting socialist" Blears did play a "street urchin" as an extra in the film A Taste of Honey. So that's where her extensive knowledge of life at the rough and street fighting end comes from....

Andy - I was referring to the run up to the Nazi seizure of power - the two sources you cite seem to refer to life under Nazi rule in Germany itself.

I don't think Blair uses the 'S' word these days; he is more inclined to use the description
'progressive' to define 'his', and Nu Labour politics.

Luke belongs to the section of the Labour Right that wholeheartedly believes that "Socialism is what a Labour government does" (Morrison, perhaps the perfect example of a right-wing Labour bully).

I disagree. There are plenty of examples of the Labour Party reaching office and managing to mess things up, delaying any sort of progress. Just look at the Labour government of 1929 to 1931. Labour loyalists were happy to believe that Ramsay MacDonald was delivering socialism, even when it was clear that his administration was following economic orthodoxy and was not delivering any sort of substantial change. Only when MacDonald abandoned Labour to form a National Government with Tories and Liberals did it dawn on his former comrades that perhaps his values were quite different from theirs. The lesson learnt should surely be that the Labour cause is not best served by dogmatic devotion to a Labour government; that questioning and criticism are necessary; and that the assumption that whatever a Labour government enacts is "socialist" is misleading.

The present government cannot be seriously looked upon as ardently socialist. It certainly does not claim to be, so Luke appears to be deluding himself. As has been said, a socialist regime would not maintain a society where fundamental structural inequalities have not been widely challenged. However, it has enacted plenty of policies that a socialist should be extremely pleased with. Even just as a means of keeping the Tories out of power, socialists should be voting for Labour. I also think it is clear that the only realistic means of achieving socialism is through involvement in the Labour Party. It's just important to accept that it is not a perfect vehicle for socialist interests and - despite Luke's claim - cannot be relied upon to constantly satisfy socialist demands. But nothing's perfect.

As for Hazel Blears claiming to be a socialist...well, socialism is clearly a rhetorical device used from time to time by these Labour politicians to appeal to the ideological grassroots. I'm not so interested in abstrat notions of socialism. I'd much prefer her to explain in detail how she envisages Labour bringing about progress towards a classless society. But somehow I doubt that would happen.

Of course, in the age of Herbert Morrison's grandson, socialism is what a Labour government doesn't do.

14. Justice and Equality. Justice means the end of all discrimination against individuals, and the equality of rights and opportunities. It demands compensation for physical, mental and social inequalities, and freedom from dependence on either the owners of the means of production or the holders of political power. Quite how you achieve that last clause without common and democratic ownership I'd be very interested to hear.

As for MacDonald, just reading an interesting biog on him, and many of his Labour government plainly didn't believe that they were building socialism, but until socialism came on the cards, free market capitalism was the only way to run things - i.e. they believed capitalism was a bastard of a system and had to administer it as such. Maybe I'm being nice to mr. MacDonald, but I'd rather have ten of him than butcher Blair any day.

I'll note luke didn't give a link nor did he mention 20. Individual rights are fundamental to the values of socialism. Democracy and human rights are also the substance of popular power, and the indispensable mechanism whereby people can control the economic structures which have so long dominated them. Without democracy, social policies cannot disguise the dictatorial character of a government.

Even just as a means of keeping the Tories out of power, socialists should be voting for Labour.

If the Tory Party didn't exist the Labour-loyalist left would have to invent it. You can't vote for the Greens/Lib Dems/nationalists, there's a council somewhere where they're in coalition with the Tories! Or, less sophisticatedly, You can't desert Labour, you'll let in the Tories! So socialists must rally to New Labour, even if this means endorsing old Tory policies (e.g. PFI), other policies that were too right-wing for the Tories (e.g. tuition fees), and a foreign policy which has actually been criticised from the Left by the current Tory Party.

And people wonder where the voters have gone. The Lib Dems would clean up if they could get that whole middle-class thing sorted out (and stop being untrustworthy toerags at a local level, clearly).

The only reason to vote "Labour" is to keep the BNP/UKIP scum away from any sense that they might win power, spurred by the apathy of people betrayed by New Labour. I would even vote for Blears if I lived in Salford, but for that reason only, no other. Socialism..............it's so pathetic to use that term in connection with Blears and her ilk that it just isn't even funny. Beyond satire, as Ken Loach said about New "Labour" some time ago.

The only "estate" Blears got her politics from was the Fourth Estate. This government grovels to the Street of Shame at every opportunity.

BTW, Luke Akehurst is no "socialist" and no "social democrat". Defending a party whose "leader" (Chief Executive of New Labour PLC, more like) sups with the likes of Berlusconi makes you somewhere to the right of the Tories. Brown will probably be even worse than Blair in power, but maybe he'll be a little more circumspect about his pals.

Whilst it's true that the Luke Akehursts of this world don't represent any definition of socialism which would be recognisable other than to... people like Luke Akehurst, it's thankfully not the case that his politics represent those of most party members. They might not hold views as firmly on the left as mine (or, I suspect, most others here), but they don't support Blairite ultras either.

The reality is that most of the old, oft-used reasons for socialists to be in the Labour Party still hold true. And besides, there aren't any other, more attractive options on offer. So plugging away in the Labour Party it is, I'm afraid.

You southern public school socialists make me laff.
Come and walk through Salford with Hazel and see which one of you gets battered first.

They might not hold views as firmly on the left as mine (or, I suspect, most others here), but they don't support Blairite ultras either.

I'm sure that's true. The question is when and how their views actually count.

You southern public school socialists make me laff.
Come and walk through Salford with Hazel and see which one of you gets battered first.

LMFAO! :D:D:D

"You southern public school socialists make me laff.
Come and walk through Salford with Hazel and see which one of you gets battered first."

I'd like to be the first person on the thread to welcome Mark E. Smith to the blog.

Sir, you are Damo Suzuki-ah

Salford? Arf.

It ain't Beirut.

Is Salford worse than Hackney, or am I missing something?

Yup. And it's worse than Clapham too.

You southern public school socialists make me laff.

Come and walk through Salford with Hazel and see which one of you gets battered first.

Look, I'm from the same part of Salford as Blears grew up. While there are rough parts it's mostly perfectly safe to walk through.

Even in the parts of Salford which she represents, it's not as if you're guarenteed to get beaten up.

What bollocks.

@ Volty - Is it 'arder than Stoke Newington Church Street, say?

I've heard tell that they don't have as many organic cafes, put it that way. And you can't get a decent farmer's market sausage for love nor money... scary stuff!

I wasn't slagging Salford.
Or implying I wouldn't walk through it.
Just pointing out that while Hazel might be Blair's lapdog she does have contact with workers - and even does things to help them on an individual basis as a constituency MP.
Unlike some of the southern public school socialists who attack her from the left.
And who I agree with.
Obviously.

Volty wrote:
"Yup. And it's worse than Clapham too."

Only real socialists are hard enough to walk through Clapham . . . and, no, Clapham Old Town - where the W(a)RP had their headquarters - doesn't count.

Regards,
Darren
(from the mean streets of Brooklyn ;-)

Only real socialists are hard enough to walk through Clapham . . . and, no, Clapham Old Town - where the W(a)RP had their headquarters - doesn't count.

Darren, actualy teh WRP offices were about where Woollies are now on the High Street, near Clapham Common Tube - it's actually the SI who have some office at maritime House in Old Town - I kshould know, I always gave them a leaflet during my triumphant (13 whole votes!) campaigns in Cla'ham.

[Using your definition of socialism there are very few socialists]

yes well, using /your/ definition of /Satanism/ there are probably very few satanists.

RD wrote:
"Darren, actualy teh WRP offices were about where Woollies are now on the High Street . . ."

That must explain why a chill always went down my spine when I nipped into woolies for my pick 'n' mix.

"public school socialists"

Like Hazel's friend, Tony bloody Blair!

“Hazel’s drive and energy have been hugely important in promoting the success of Salford. She has helped to breathe new life into the Party and her ability in directly communicating with working people has been soemthing we have come to rely on.”
Councillor John Merry (Leader, Salford Council)

I told you!

For more visit www.hazelblears.com

PS I'm not supporting her. Just stirring it.

Bwwwahhhhahuaaaaaaaaah!. Hazel Blears a socialist? Trades Description Act comes to mind.

As |for our Hazel being part of a socialist government:

A housing boom pushing average house prices, whilst reneging on Prescott's promise of releasing the massive funds accrued by council house sales satisfied that anyone considering Blairism socialist needs a padded cell.

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